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Post by malk103 on Dec 26, 2011 23:36:11 GMT
I was aksed a few weeks back how our club promotes or teaches the spiritual side of Karate and am still pondering on an answer.
He is involved with the healing with stones sort of thing and wanted to know how Karate Clubs develop the spiritual side of learning Martial Art.
I've reached Shodan and think I have a good attitude towards Karate but i'm still seeking guidance on this one....
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Post by fujicolt on Dec 26, 2011 23:50:30 GMT
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Post by nathanso on Dec 27, 2011 0:59:33 GMT
I think that courtesy towards your training partners is required when you practice martial arts. As the ability of your mind to control your body develops along with the increased likelihood that what you have been studying can harm another human being, you will hopefully have sufficient moral character to not use that ability unwisely. That said, I think that it is a mistake to look to martial arts to develop your "spiritual" life. To me, that would indicate a vacuum that should be filled by means that don't involve trying to hit, kick, or otherwise beat the crap out of someone, even if only symbolically.
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Post by fleur on Dec 27, 2011 9:39:28 GMT
An individuals spirtural journey, is that - individual. It has nothing to do with the club. The club can hopefully nurture, self belief, foster a fighting spirit, determination, perseverance and hopefully install some values such as fair play, patience and respect. Some clubs but not many these days, follow the path of Zen and incorporate that into the club culture which is following the path of peace. But from the way you wrote your post I think your student seems to believe that there is a spiritual aspect within karate itself which he is expecting to be taught. This is not the case. However I believe that karate can be the vessel that can lead an individual onto a path of self discovery which may lead to finding the essence of spirituality due to the tranquility and empty mind state that training can lead us too. Where your training takes you is part of your own journey, no body elses. He just hasn't figured this part out yet. Sounds like he wants an easy answer and an easy fix. Not going to happen, maybe suggest he trains for the next 20 years with an open mind and see where it takes him. And obviously this is all just my opinion and many may not agree. There are many who have trained their whole life and I am sure never ventured down the path of spirituality, because they have chosen not too or it is of no interest to them, which takes me back to my original statement. Exploring spirituality is an individual pursuit of discovery which some will choose to embark on and others will not. It has nothing to do with your club.
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Post by malk103 on Dec 27, 2011 20:05:38 GMT
Thank you for the excellent answers, just to point out the chap that asked me the question is not a Karate-ka but is heavily involved with Reiki and was asking how our Karate club deals with the spiritual aspect of the Art.
I guess that trying to teach anything spiritual would be very difficult, apart from running a semi disciplined lesson and promoting respect it would be a mine field, some may perceive it as preaching or just get bored. Maybe the answer I was looking for are in the Doju and Niji Kun. Maybe encourage the students to read certain books to further their training and understanding.
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Post by Bob Davis on Dec 27, 2011 21:45:21 GMT
And very presumptuous as well IMHO. Never understood why the notion that being an expert in how to punch and kick people somehow makes you an authority on how others should live their lives (not suggesting that was your intent BTW), sorry but there's more than enough BS in the martial arts already (just my opinion).
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Post by malk103 on Dec 28, 2011 8:57:57 GMT
No problems Bob, I guess only those with a perfect character can possibly teach perfection of character.....
I've met enough people who think they are perfect! We were talking before Xmas about a chap running "advanced" lessons a few years back and how he gradually turned his lessons into something wierd where he insisted everyone called him MASTER. He also got people to pay up front for a season and did a runner with the money, so obviously a great role model!
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Post by fujicolt on Dec 28, 2011 12:38:52 GMT
Spiritual: 1. Of the Soul or Spirit 2. Of religion or sacred things (Bloomsbury Essential Dictionary) Karate is NOT a vehicle for redeeming/settling or ‘freeing’ the soul or inner Spirit* Karate is NOT about Religion or Sacred Things** Neither is it about the worship of anything or anybody*** Karate study is not a study of Zen (****) · (*) I think the biggest problem we face is that some people become a little confused and relate the development of a fighting ‘Spirit’ (read courageous attitude) with the development of the inner esoteric Spirit that is our essence. · (**) Karate is not a religious or sacred thing either and despite a tradition of respect for our Dojo don’t get confused. The respect is about wherever we train be it A purpose built Dojo, Church Hall shared with other activities, A sports Centre, A beach or field or a Marquee. It is about the fact that we have an area to use in which to train earnestly – be it beach or purpose built dojo it doesn’t matter just be grateful to train. · (***) Karate is not about worshiping anyone. I do feel concern when ‘Due Respect’ for Senior Grades turns to blind adoration of the ‘they can do whatever they want and even when they have justifiably been found to have done things that are deceitful, untruthful or even illegal we shall ignore IT and deify them regardless of the obvious’ Kind that is so alarmingly familiar. · Karate is not a Study of Zen. Zen study is a completely different journey. It can be an aspect of studying Zen but for the vast Majority of very long served and experienced Karateka it is in no way a study of Zen. Whilst standing by the above I am however staunchly supportive of claims that Karate Study can be a vehicle for learning about oneself and through that process developing your character, value base and behaviour positively. This can be both an (initially) uncomfortable process as we recognise our faults and limitations and a hugely enlightening and rewarding experience, enhanced by the increase in physical health and the resulting improvement in emotional health but it is far from being a spiritual experience. Joyful and life changing, of course it can be so but that, I would suggest, doesn’t make it spiritual. Sadly I cannot claim Karate study will create this process because it does not in everyone. We must also accept that this ‘enlightening, fulfilling and Life improving’ process is also available via other vehicles that will engender very similar results – Sport, Dance, a physically challenging and mentally taxing job that you totally enjoy doing but if we exclude increase in physical health and ability we could include – Reading, education and the empowerment that can flow from such activities. Furthermore there are events that in an instance can have a similar positive and life changing effect that can include positive changes in behaviour: · Falling in love and committing yourself (totally eyes open and willingly) to a life partner · The birth of your 1st (and Subsequent) Child/Children · Having a totally trustworthy friend whom you enjoy the company of and have for years · Committing to an endeavour that, without reward to you, helps others The list goes on and on. We live not far from Glastonbury and Stonehenge – both locations revered by thousands of people as being spiritual centres so I have had many a chat with people whose whole lives are related to things ‘spiritual’. Many have voiced to me shock and absolute abhorrence of any claim that a study of an ‘Art’ that is essentially equipping you with the skills to kill, maim or seriously injure your fellow man. I stand by the above with only one caveat: These opinions are what they are = my conclusions after quite a long involvement in Karate Study and Training and therefore if YOU believe that Karate Study is (for you) a spiritual experience then who am I to argue as I can only speak of my conclusions.
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Post by kensei on Dec 28, 2011 14:10:40 GMT
First off Spiritual teachings do not really exist in Pure Karate training, However....each person has their own "spiritual" understandings.
I train with a room full of cathlics, jews, hindu, Buddhists, Anglicans and a bunch that just have their own way...oh, and one Witch!
They each saythey can see a spiritual side of Karate, but each sees a "DIFFERENT" thing.
For me, its the feeling of peace I get after a butt kicker of a class that really saps the heck out of me, I get this calm that sets over me. Normally I have a big ADD Buzzz going on and need to do three thigns at once. With the "Drain" that a great class gets for me I settle down, focus and relax.
Thats my spiritual side in training...its a form of mental and physical balance.
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Post by fujicolt on Dec 28, 2011 14:49:46 GMT
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Post by kensei on Dec 28, 2011 19:29:59 GMT
it could be argued that most "spiritual experiences" were a result of chemical and emotional processes that have occured....ergo the religious people are a bunch of junkies! ;D (gonna get it for that one).. seriously, one persons Chemo-emotional reaction is another persons euphoria!
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Post by fujicolt on Dec 29, 2011 1:18:53 GMT
it could be argued that most "spiritual experiences" were a result of chemical and emotional processes that have occured....ergo the religious people are a bunch of junkies! ;D (gonna get it for that one).. seriously, one persons Chemo-emotional reaction is another persons euphoria! Does that make it a spiritual experience? Seriously James - I really struggle with this one, I cannot find anything spiritual in Karate Study and Training. I have discussed it over the years many times but have never had anyone raise an argument to my position that in anyway made me go 'Oh, That is it. Why didn't i see that?' I have had a lot of people describe elation and eurphoria but when examined similar can be achieved reading a book, or playing monopoly with loved ones. I TOTALLY get what you have described and have experienced it all myself - but never felt it was a spiritual experience. I have not taken a rooted position and would be interested to be 'kicked outa my sit' with new info but 'til then = as my post above!
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Post by kensei on Dec 29, 2011 13:51:44 GMT
I will guess at this point that it all depends on your point of view on what "spirituality" is! Spirituality is an inner path enabling a person to discover the essence of his/her being; or the deepest values and meanings by which people live. Spiritual practices, including many different modalities, are intended to develop an individuals inner life, spiritual experience includes that of connectedness with a larger reality, yielding a more comprehensive self; with other individual or the human community, with nature and with the cosmos. Spirituality is often experienced as a source of inspiration or orientation in life. It can encompass belief in immaterial realities or experiences of the immanent or transcendent nature of the world……
Okay, I stole most of that BS….But Modality is mine! I don’t know Steve, I mean I don’t ever think of Karate as being spiritual in any way, but I also find it hard to argue that I don’t….on some level…experience what others would call a Spiritual connection or experience when I train. I have wicked Attention deficit issues and I often find my mind running millions of miles ahead, but when I train I am calm and focused, even in my basement at home working on Gyaku zuki I find myself tuned in!
I guess its hard to argue against it being spiritual but I also have a hard time arguing the other side too, its just my form of spiritual experience. But I can see the other side of the coin clearly as well….guess I have to do some more thinking on it!
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Post by jimlukelkc on Dec 29, 2011 17:39:46 GMT
Spirituality is an inner path enabling a person to discover the essence of his/her being; or the deepest values and meanings by which people live. Spiritual practices, including many different modalities, are intended to develop an individuals inner life, spiritual experience includes that of connectedness with a larger reality, yielding a more comprehensive self; with other individual or the human community, with nature and with the cosmos. Spirituality is often experienced as a source of inspiration or orientation in life. It can encompass belief in immaterial realities or experiences of the immanent or transcendent nature of the world……
Unfortunately all the above is often accompanied by belief, based purely on faith, of a higher being, God etc. Or the extolling of some pseudo-scientific nonsense about crystals, lay-lines or the power of the stars to influence or daily lives. People can believe what they like, that does not make it real! ( For a given value of "Real"). Personally I think anything that enriches our lives, gives us a feeling of achievement or causes us to reach deeper into our natural reserves than we normally would, can make us feel we understand ourselves better than we did. For some people, that in itself is a revelation. We are only kidding ourselves however if we lose sight of the fact that we are practising Karate as an answer to the violence that is inherent in all men. As generally good people, it is important that we view this as a civilised practice or else we are reduced to the same level as the thugs who perpetrate this violence. However to dress this up as a spiritual experience is a step too far for me. For one thing, I am too flawed a human being to direct anyone down the path to enlightenment and would feel uncomfortable even attempting it.
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Post by fujicolt on Dec 29, 2011 17:49:58 GMT
Spirituality is an inner path enabling a person to discover the essence of his/her being; or the deepest values and meanings by which people live. Spiritual practices, including many different modalities, are intended to develop an individuals inner life, spiritual experience includes that of connectedness with a larger reality, yielding a more comprehensive self; with other individual or the human community, with nature and with the cosmos. Spirituality is often experienced as a source of inspiration or orientation in life. It can encompass belief in immaterial realities or experiences of the immanent or transcendent nature of the world…… Unfortunately all the above is often accompanied by belief, based purely on faith, of a higher being, God etc. Or the extolling of some pseudo-scientific nonsense about crystals, lay-lines or the power of the stars to influence or daily lives. People can believe what they like, that does not make it real! ( For a given value of "Real"). Personally I think anything that enriches our lives, gives us a feeling of achievement or causes us to reach deeper into our natural reserves than we normally would, can make us feel we understand ourselves better than we did. For some people, that in itself is a revelation. We are only kidding ourselves however if we lose sight of the fact that we are practising Karate as an answer to the violence that is inherent in all men. As generally good people, it is important that we view this as a civilised practice or else we are reduced to the same level as the thugs who perpetrate this violence. However to dress this up as a spiritual experience is a step too far for me. For one thing, I am too flawed a human being to direct anyone down the path to enlightenment and would feel uncomfortable even attempting it. this is why I love being a member of this forum - what an eloquent and thought provoking post Jim - IPPON!
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Post by kensei on Dec 29, 2011 20:00:47 GMT
We are only kidding ourselves however if we lose sight of the fact that we are practising Karate as an answer to the violence that is inherent in all men. That is assuming that this is the reason you practice Karate! I know of a hand full of people who would never use violence to oppose violence, and a few who could not...but still train in Karate and would never dream of using Karate "as an answer to the violence that is inherent in all men". yes, that is one major benefit of training in Karate, however it is not the only one. I know of a lawyer (barister for the brits) who trains with us because his Doctor told him to get in shape and destress or he would be dead by 50! karate is his saveing grace because it did both for him. ...he picked Karate because 'its cool' ....just saying that their are other reasons other than defending yourself to take up Karate and often it is not even the last reason! For one thing, I am too flawed a human being to direct anyone down the path to enlightenment and would feel uncomfortable even attempting it. DEAR GOD I HOPE SO! but that is also the kind of person whom SHOULD be giving bits of advice. I have found those that feel they SHOULD be doing this are the people whom should be avoided at all costs when it comes to personal advice! I also dont think that an instructor guides a person to enlightenment. they provide a vehicle but the person still has to drive it themselves. its like grand dad used to say..you can lead a horse to water...but try and friggin drown it...forget it! In other words, we can bring a tool to the students, have them train and work hard in class, but when it comes to personal experiences of enlightenment...some will and some wont get that something they need to put them over the fence! And by the way...never said I was enlightened in any way or shape, just that my form of feeling 'spiritually connected' was through karate....I think
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Post by fleur on Dec 29, 2011 20:27:34 GMT
Of all posts above, I'm with James.
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Post by malk103 on Dec 29, 2011 20:34:03 GMT
I've more than had my questions answered so thanks again, I now have a good idea of an answer to give my friend. The only thing I would add is it doesn't really matter what you get out of your training so long as it's positive.
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Post by kensei on Dec 30, 2011 13:15:48 GMT
The only thing I would add is it doesn't really matter what you get out of your training so long as it's positive. I think that should be part of the Dojo kun from now on! Better words have not been spoken on the subject till now!
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Post by jimlukelkc on May 13, 2013 8:59:26 GMT
Just revisiting this thread and It got me thinking.....looking at all the previous replies, does anyone think we are mistaking moral fibre and good character for spirituality. Surely spirituality is by its nature difficult to quantify and is hardly compatible with the practice of a martial art? I firmly believe that there is nowhere to hide in a karate class and that a persons character in general terms shines through ( positive or negative ) . I also believe that focusing the mind on a difficult physical task can be calming and de-stressing and that achieving competence in karate and facing up to the various challenges can boost confidence and give direction to a persons moral compass. To assign this some spiritual significance or other-wordly importance makes me uncomfortable and would go against my personal beliefs. At the end of the day we are trying to achieve mastery over ourselves. If we achieve this we have achieved a great deal and this is enough for me,
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Post by th0mas on May 13, 2013 11:35:40 GMT
Hi Jim
Wow, to paraphrase from a well know spiritual text, you seem to have "done a Lazarus" on this thread...
But as Paul in his many letters to the Corinthians failed to address, Spiritualism and martial arts seem to have a great affinity but are as about as useful to practical self-protection as a spinning jumping hook kick and the ability to break wood boards, both of which also seem to plague our dojo's.
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Post by jimlukelkc on May 13, 2013 13:36:25 GMT
" Done a Lazarus" ! like it... sums up myself every morning really!
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Post by jimlukelkc on May 13, 2013 13:38:29 GMT
" Done a Lazarus" ! like it... sums up myself every morning really!
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2013 21:44:40 GMT
Spiritualism and martial arts seem to have a great affinity but are as about as useful to practical self-protection as a spinning jumping hook kick and the ability to break wood boards, both of which also seem to plague our dojo's. Fabulous :-) I have never understood the connection between spiritualism and learning to hurt people (in self defence of course) the two seem to have no connection to me. In fact I was recently told (on Facebook) that I am not a complete Martial Artist as I make no attempt to develop a spiritual side. It was suggested to me that by not doing this I would suffer "inner turmoil". I pointed out that if someone breaks into my house and my wife and kids are upstairs in bed there will be no "inner conflict", my only intention will be (to borrow a phrase from Geoff Thompson) to take him off the planet.
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Post by jimlukelkc on May 14, 2013 10:25:56 GMT
People often assume that there is a dichotomy between learning to be violent efficiently and being a pacifist. There is not. Most martial artists are learning a degree of self-control that others will never learn and this is the action of a pacifist. There is no "inner turmoil "as most of us have reconciled these facts. It is presumptious of someone to tell you you are not complete because you have not developed your spiritual side. If like me you do not see any evidence for "spirit" then there is nothing there to develop. Developing character should be something to cultivate but whether martial arts is the right vehicle for that I would not like to say. No-one would say that to a soldier but we do not assume that all soldiers must be conflicted with inner turmoil and eventually degenerate into violent brutes.
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