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Post by bryceifleming on Mar 13, 2012 16:17:55 GMT
For all you who recieved the latest Shotokan Karate Magazine and read the interview with Jorgensen Sensei, the Chairman of the ITKF, I wanted to touch base on one element that was fairly queried by Paul Willoughby: Why Rick?
I thought that the interview covered this well, certainly it covered a lot of ground, some of it quite controversial, but I would like to put my two cents out there and hope that people see the truth behind it. Paul wondered why Rick Jorgensen was selected as the ITKF Chairman when there are any number of more senior and better known instructors affiliated with the ITKF. My answer is this: his selection was based on his dedication to the vision of Mr. Nishiyama and his administrative abilities. Rick is not interested in carving out his own little empire "Jorgensen-ryu Karate"; the entire extent of his karate carreer (and it is a carreer, not some expanded hobby like the vast majority of us) has been all about following Mr. Nishiyama's Path. He spent the last fifteen to twenty years in daily contact with Sensei and was privy to and part of most of Mr. Nishiyama's developments in the last decade of his life. Rick is not interested in replacing Mr. Nishiyama, he is interested in continuing on the path that Mr. Nishiyama plotted out for his organization.
With this in mind, Mr. Jorgensen is helping lead the organization by forming a central technical committee of senior ITKF instructors who will endeavour to maintain the technical standards of Nishiyama-ryu Traditional Karate. Jorgensen-Sensei is not a dictator or director; he is a Chairman. As a Chairman he leads discussions, arrange meetings, negotiate conflicts and run a organization based on democratic principles (at the leadership level) and guided by the master plan developed by Mr. Nishiyama over his lengthy carreer. Rick made it clear that there will be NO replacing Nishiyama Sensei; merely a honest effort to fullfill his plan.
With regards to "democratic process" in karate: I am not a big believer in democracy in karate at the lower levels (with regards to technical direction specifically. Club management is another matter alltogether). For every guy out there who really understands karate, there are a hundred guys out there like me: Cliff Claven know-it-alls who speak first and learn later. People with my limitted knowledge and experience should follow and learn in near silence. On the other hand, at the senior belt levels where people have immense amounts of time and effort invested in karate, only a reasonable democratic approach will work; each of the senior instructors have something valuable to contribute to the organization.
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Post by kensei on Mar 14, 2012 12:39:15 GMT
I had read grumblings since Nishyama Sensei Passed about who will "Lead" the way. If everything you say is true and Rick only wants to "Chair" the board as it were, then I think Nishyama Sensei Karate is in good hands with a Board and a head that is not interested in replacing the master.
I know of a few seniors that had more time in and were longer students that felt off put by the whole thing, I hope Rick can draw them back in and help steer the ship with them pushing forwards. It truely is sad when a Master passes and all their work is gone or splintered about like drift wood.
Its not JKA Karate so it has little to do with me, hope that Rick and the rest of the ITKF are successfull in maintaining their path. Good luck Gods speed!
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Post by malk103 on Mar 14, 2012 13:39:30 GMT
Thanks for the info, it's difficult to get your head around the number of organisations and governing bodies of Karate, it would be good (in my opinion) to only have a few. I also think its good that the title should go to the best placed person rather than the next in line or the longest served - not that I know much about any of the people concerned - just the idea, I currently work for someone who got promoted because he was next in line but far from best choice.
I'm not too sure about your statement of "should follow and learn in near silence". Everyone should be able to offer their input if they think it is worth consideration, I think Karate needs to evolve. If this forum went on the same thinking then everyone below 3rd Dan wouldn't be allowed to offer ideas or ask questions from the more experienced. ;D
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Post by deckerdude304 on Mar 14, 2012 21:22:30 GMT
I am in totally agreement in the last bit of what you said with you there malk103. How CAN someone learn without asking questions of those that have gone before them? In my own limited experience, if i dont ask, i know! Its not enough to just follow, or ''do'', one has to ask, even if just for clarification on a point.
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Post by bryceifleming on Mar 15, 2012 18:24:11 GMT
I am in totally agreement in the last bit of what you said with you there malk103. How CAN someone learn without asking questions of those that have gone before them? In my own limited experience, if i dont ask, i know! Its not enough to just follow, or ''do'', one has to ask, even if just for clarification on a point. Don't get me wrong, I fully endorse the asking of questions. Lord knows I ask Sensei Jorgensen questions every time I train with him. He actually changed an entire three day seminar theme just to answer a question I posed to him. On the other hand, there is a difference between valid questions for clarification and combative "I know better" questions. I personally am a perfect example of "I should know better": for years I railed against the status quo and basically alienated everybody both senior and junior to me. I have finally realized a key point of ALL karate: Listen, learn, query and try to ingest what you can from whomever will teach you. Take what works for you, leave what does not. If it does not work for you, just accept that; don't tell people they are wrong or mistaken because it probably works for some other karateka just fine. Mike Clarke discussed this with me a couple of months ago via e-mail. I said that I was having a real problem adjusting to a new club and new style (Shobayashi Shorin Ryu). He replied that, by the time a karateka is Shodan or higher, it is his responsibility to find his own karate and stop trying to fit the mold of some other dude. The corrolary of this is true too: stop trying to make other people fit your mold; just train, share ideas and accept that different strokes for different folks. With regards to associations: we all need to separate a karate association from a style or a school or an individual. A karate association, whether it be ITKF or WUKO or ISKF, should be an umbrella organization of clubs that generally agree to follow similar curriculum and standards and compete under the same rules. If you look at it this way, then these constant and idiotic association splits would just stop because if the rules were fine before the personality issues got in the way, then they are fine now. Just take your egotistical personality issues and bury them for "bitchin' time" when you are alone. The flip side of this matter is personal training: I can learn from anyone, even if it is how NOT to do something. I don't need to contradict everything he says and does, I can just store it away and remind myself to take a rain check on the next seminar that guy holds. Further to that, if I still have issues with the way an entire association runs things, just change associations or discontinue joining associations altogether. In the end, its your karate, not the association's or the sensei's. In the end the only person you really answer to is you. Question yourself. One issue I wanted to clarify about Rick Jorgensen: He specifically said that there will NEVER be a successor to Nishiyama Sensei. Nishiyama Sensei laid down the program for now and for the future. As a "Chairman" it is Jorgensen Sensei's responsibility to follow that plan. Think of him as the Executor of the Will (the will of Nishiyama) rather than "the Leader". Once we all get over this need to have a living God at the head of our associations and look instead for principles we can follow, everything will work better.
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Post by fujicolt on Mar 16, 2012 2:19:42 GMT
I wish Richard Jorgenson and the ITKF all the very best. However, there will, inevitably, be splits and breakaways - it is sadly the nature of things. Karate develops certain ideas and unfortunately there are those who have become fixated on having a Japanese Karateka as their leader - somehow feeling that this makes their group more authentic etc - even if said Japanese person does not have the length of service and depth of study of a more suitable non japanese Instructor or even if they have shown themselves to be less than ethical in how they will run things (buy your Senior Rank accreditation for £1000 etc and i'll publicly endorse it - LMAO!). Sorry if i sound a harbinger of doom - just decades of watching the circus I am afraid - It will be interesting to see how things are 2 or 3 yrs from now
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Post by kensei on Mar 16, 2012 12:23:55 GMT
The biggest problem with this move that I can personally see is that thier are guys senior to Rick who were under the ITKF banner for so long that will probably split as they feel "Slighted". I personally hope that they realize the whole "Executor" and "Chair" possition is what it is and they can hang out and push their own clubs to grow and be a success under the ITKF banner with out getting their nose out of joint over the new leadership.
Personally its not what goes on in the political world that interests me in Karate, its the things that go on in my Dojo, my basement and when I put on the white Pajamas that interest me, the rest is just a neccessary evil that I have to put up with.
I personally dont know Rick but hope his ITKF can go on and grow as much as it did, or more, under Nishyama Sensei.
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Post by bryceifleming on Mar 16, 2012 20:23:47 GMT
One could also look at it in another light: allow the administrator to administrate while the "more senior, better known" instructors get the freedom to instruct. All you guys that run or own a dojo: how nice would it be if you just turned up and ran your classes and left all the management BS to some ultra-loyal colleague whos only goal is to make your life easy and keep your dojo running smoothly?
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Post by sagan on Apr 9, 2012 19:17:47 GMT
I think as a chairman of ITKF, Rick is as good a choice as anyone. He certainly has been involved in the goings on of the ITKF for longer then most of us have been training. It wouldn't have mattered who became chairman of the ITKF, someone somewhere would have been slighted. I wish him luck as it certainly isn't an easy job.
I've been involved with karate at the club board level, provincial board levels, and was involved on the 2006 ITKF World's planning committee. I've seen our provincial organization and our national organization melt down and have been highly critical of the way these oragnizations have operated. These organizations were set up to promote karate and support students and athletes in karate. They are not there to maintain the "plan" or "path" of whomever started these organizations. Once they start down this "protectionist" road any growth for these organizations ceases. Once growth stops the organizations stagnate and eventually will cease to exist. I hope I'm wrong but if the manadate of the ITKF is now to "protect" Nishiyama's legacy instead of promoting Nishiyama's karate I don't see a bright future ahead. In my opinion. some dialogue and sharing of ideas with other karate organizations needs to happen if the ITKF is to survive.
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Post by fujicolt on Apr 10, 2012 23:46:08 GMT
openess and interaction is indeed possible and fruitful but in my experience it is the Seniors whom are confident in the Quality of what they are teaching to thier students that go down this road (Brilliant!) and those not too sure or 'protecting incomes' that become 'Closed Door' in their approach!
There is however, an acute desire to interact within the general population of Students (we see it at every friendship Course) and when they do it leads to good stuff!
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Post by kensei on Apr 11, 2012 12:11:27 GMT
Dumb question here...if Rick is the Chair...who is the chief instructor?
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Post by sagan on Apr 13, 2012 2:59:59 GMT
As far as I know there will be no designated chief instructor as it has been made very clear that Sensei Nishiyama will not be replaced. I'm hoping that the technical committee will appoint several "head or senior" instructors but this is only wishful thinking. Rick heads the Canadian Traditional Karate Federation (CTKF) which came about from the last split of national organizations in Canada in 2005/2006. At that time a technical committee was also talked about for the CTKF to spread seminar and grading duties amongst the senior instructors in the organization. It's been seven years and, as far as I know, there is still no committee formed. Logic would dictate that it will be just as hard to form a technical committee in the ITKF simply because of the high number of instructors over 5th dan. Again, someone somewhere will be slighted no matter who is chosen for the committee.
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Post by fujicolt on Apr 15, 2012 16:58:29 GMT
Wise words Lyndon - I have long held the belief that if you want something doing you need an ultimate authority (a Boss) to get it done as committees - in my experience - rarely work well, if at all!
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Post by IanM on Apr 23, 2012 19:42:47 GMT
Wise words Lyndon - I have long held the belief that if you want something doing you need an ultimate authority (a Boss) to get it done as committees - in my experience - rarely work well, if at all! Couldn't agree more. I'm a great believer in the old saying "A committee is a group of people who individually aren't capable of doing anything, but can all gather in a room together to eventually decide nothing can be done."
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Post by kensei on Apr 25, 2012 11:41:02 GMT
Wise words Lyndon - I have long held the belief that if you want something doing you need an ultimate authority (a Boss) to get it done as committees - in my experience - rarely work well, if at all! Couldn't agree more. I'm a great believer in the old saying "A committee is a group of people who individually aren't capable of doing anything, but can all gather in a room together to eventually decide nothing can be done." same could be said for Government...."a very efficient machine to generate nothing but a large amount of hot air" ;D
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