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Post by Ernst on May 3, 2012 15:33:13 GMT
Well, I'm putting my head on the choppingblock and posting an old clip from when me and my clubmates were doing some team kata We were really having fun at the time, training mostly on our own and competing a bit. Looking at the clips again, I can really see all the flaws and mistakes, but it felt good at the time. I'm on the right side on the team(left from viewing point). Those days are gone, but still training and having fun www.youtube.com/watch?v=aztAf-AtSjc&feature=plcpEdit: We are first and last in clip.
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Post by andyupton on May 3, 2012 18:47:18 GMT
Excellent, very nice synchronisation.
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Post by malk103 on May 3, 2012 19:54:46 GMT
You should be proud as they looked very impressive, it's good to see Kata done in groups.
I've just been doing Empi tonight as well!
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Post by fujicolt on May 3, 2012 22:51:55 GMT
Nice one Ernst! Contrary to the oft seen Spelling mistake = Empi, in relation to the Kata the actual name is ENPI. Empi refers to te elbow as in Empi Uchi. The Kata (Flying or Swooping Swallow) is Enpi. Although i have noticed that mis - spelling of Empi is appearing more and more regularly! but either way Nice one Ernst - especially liked the UNSU timing
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Post by nathanso on May 4, 2012 4:10:29 GMT
Contrary to the oft seen Spelling mistake = Empi, in relation to the Kata the actual name is ENPI. Empi refers to te elbow as in Empi Uchi. The Kata (Flying or Swooping Swallow) is Enpi. I disagree, and so does Nakyama and the JKA (click on the shodan reuirements).
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Post by th0mas on May 4, 2012 8:39:03 GMT
Contrary to the oft seen Spelling mistake = Empi, in relation to the Kata the actual name is ENPI. Empi refers to te elbow as in Empi Uchi. The Kata (Flying or Swooping Swallow) is Enpi. I disagree, and so does Nakyama and the JKA (click on the shodan reuirements). Well the JKA and Nakayama have not always translated Karate with the best of accuracy..
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Post by Bob Davis on May 4, 2012 9:31:08 GMT
Without wishing to drft the thread even further from the original clip (which would be a shame) my books have about a 50:50 split Empi/Enpi. I have always thought of it as Enpi kata but this is the problem of trying to translate words into an alphabet that they were never originally intended for, it's not so much inacurate translation as trying to get the phonetics right with the "wrong" (and limited) alphabet.
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Post by Rob S on May 4, 2012 12:35:09 GMT
Hi.
I have to agree with Bob!
The important point to remember is that Romaji is subjective spelling to the Japanese pronunciation.
Enpi/Empi makes no difference as the word is never intended to be spelled in Arabic letters as we use. It is written in Kanji. The Kanji for the kata = 燕飛; the Kanji for the Hiji Ate empi = 猿臂。
Clearly these are different.
The argument over enpi or empi can not be solved correctly, I would suggest, in English Language.
Shotokan/Shotoukan/Shoutokan Dojo/Dojyo
Etc. Etc.
We can not take Nakayama's English translation of Best Karate as correct phonetic spelling. As the books are a translation.
And our understanding of the words are not always correct. Nukite or Kanshu? Hiji Ate or Empi? They are essential the same thing. Different terminaology. Sanbonzuki or Sanren Zuki. Etc. etc.
Pronunciation is a nightmare for non Japanese speakers. Many Japanese sensei do not understand when we as about a technique. Recently I heard a student ask about the 'guy-yaku-zookey, and ah - ghee -oo-key'. The sensei had no idea what was being asked.
The same went for 'Hee-yan', and 'Gin' kata and even 'nice gehree'.
We do not pronounce Japanese correctly. So we cannot quibble over our understanding of how it should be written in an alphabet it was not intended for! (IMHO)
Back to the subject ... the kata performance of the team is very good. WOuld win many tournaments that I have viewed over the past few years. You should be proud.
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Post by fleur on May 5, 2012 10:45:10 GMT
Ernst - super!
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Post by makoto on May 5, 2012 16:10:01 GMT
Yeah, when I first came to Japan, I could not tell if it was a "n" sound or a "m" sound with some of the words. But I realized, after studying a bit, it was a "n" sound. It is enpi, and not empi. There is no singular "m" sound in Japanese. It is either "ma, mi, mu, me, mo". There is no "m" sound only in Japanese. So, e+m+pi can not exist in Japanese, but e+n+pi can. Sorry to burst anyone's bubble, but that is the way it is. Oh, bwt the way, all Japanese words that are nouns are uncountable, so there is no such thing as dojos, karatekas, sushies, senseis, etc etc.
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Post by fujicolt on May 5, 2012 16:36:41 GMT
Hi. I have to agree with Bob! The important point to remember is that Romaji is subjective spelling to the Japanese pronunciation. Enpi/Empi makes no difference as the word is never intended to be spelled in Arabic letters as we use. It is written in Kanji. The Kanji for the kata = 燕飛; the Kanji for the Hiji Ate empi = 猿臂。 Clearly these are different. The argument over enpi or empi can not be solved correctly, I would suggest, in English Language. Shotokan/Shotoukan/Shoutokan Dojo/Dojyo Etc. Etc. We can not take Nakayama's English translation of Best Karate as correct phonetic spelling. As the books are a translation. And our understanding of the words are not always correct. Nukite or Kanshu? Hiji Ate or Empi? They are essential the same thing. Different terminaology. Sanbonzuki or Sanren Zuki. Etc. etc. Pronunciation is a nightmare for non Japanese speakers. Many Japanese sensei do not understand when we as about a technique. Recently I heard a student ask about the 'guy-yaku-zookey, and ah - ghee -oo-key'. The sensei had no idea what was being asked. The same went for 'Hee-yan', and 'Gin' kata and even 'nice gehree'. We do not pronounce Japanese correctly. So we cannot quibble over our understanding of how it should be written in an alphabet it was not intended for! (IMHO) Back to the subject ... the kata performance of the team is very good. WOuld win many tournaments that I have viewed over the past few years. You should be proud. Excellent info Ernst but shall still have to disagree with both you and Bob - it IS Enpi not Empi in this case irrelevant of all the translation issues you have so eloquently highlighted
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Post by Rob S on May 5, 2012 20:02:07 GMT
Okay Steve,
The challenge ... could be ...
You do your version of the kata.
And a chosen one form the board will do theirs!
You can do Enpi.
They can do Empi!
:-)
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Post by th0mas on May 9, 2012 17:18:33 GMT
..Just to throw something else into the mix...
I also read somewhere that in many cases, especially in terms of the "modern" shotokan kata, the Japanese Kanji has been cleverly selected to be a close approximation of the Okinawan pronouciation of the Kata name, whilst providing some imagery/ flavour to the meaning.
e.g. Enpi = the swooping Swallow
...imagery not disimilar to how the kata is performed in Shotokan.
To add further to the confustion, it can also be postulated that the Okinawan name of the kata is an interepreation of the pronounciation of the original chinese name for the form. Often the name of the Kata is derived from the name of its Originator. Examples are Kushanku (Kenkudai), Chinto (Gankaku)...and Enpi
Enpi (Japanese) = Wanshu (Okinawan) = Wang Ji (the name of the 17 Century Chinese originator of the kata)
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Post by malk103 on May 9, 2012 20:36:26 GMT
"e.g. Enpi = the swooping Swallow ...imagery not disimilar to how the kata is performed in Shotokan." It's more of a wallowing sparrow when I perform it..... I will try to spell it properly in the future, I have been trying to learn more Japanese but now and again revert back to English so I don't insult the language too much.
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Post by kensei on May 10, 2012 11:36:01 GMT
Enpi (Japanese) = Wanshu (Okinawan) = Wang Ji (the name of the 17 Century Chinese originator of the kata) Just because I am a picky old prick....Wang Ji is not the person who created the Kata, but his techniques of fighting were used to create the Kata. I know its a minor point, but like I said...I am a picky old prick! ;D Aside from that, the story goes that many of the "old time" okinawan instructors began using different names (slightly sometimes) for Kata because they were not written and they would teach it one time and call it "Sesan" and the next time call it something different. Then when the Okinawans wanted to bring it to Japan they tried to "de-Chinese" the Kata and find more suitable Japanese terms. Now with that translation issues came up and some of the attempts by Funakoshi and his pears fell short. Then you have to translate them from Japanese to English (romanji). Well, each instructor had a different dialect they spoke and the Okinawans did not have a great grasp of Japanese in most cases......Ergo, we have Jutte, Jitte, Jotte and I have even seen Chute and Jewte for the same Kata! Remembering that we are reading the Romanji writting of a Japanese term interpreted from Kanji and the "verbal" reprosentation of the same Kanji can have several pronunciation issues that create headaches for us. I recal being in a class with several JKA instructors and they would say "Oh, Do Kanku Dai" but we would hear "HO, DOS KANAKU KAI" or "OUS, DOZO KRANAKU KA"......very strange to hear the same request from four guys all saying it slightly differently.
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Post by andyupton on May 10, 2012 16:50:59 GMT
...and the least said about the pronunciation of "Wankan" Kata the better ! ;D
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Post by th0mas on May 10, 2012 17:04:14 GMT
Enpi (Japanese) = Wanshu (Okinawan) = Wang Ji (the name of the 17 Century Chinese originator of the kata) Just because I am a picky old prick....Wang Ji is not the person who created the Kata, but his techniques of fighting were used to create the Kata. I know its a minor point, but like I said...I am a picky old prick! ;D Oh I know... and I don't think it's a minor point. Basically my thinking is that for Shotokan Karate practitioners who have grown up learning what is essentially performance kata and in many cases is still taught as such, this completely changes the emphasis of what a kata is and what it should be used for. And that is the understanding that Kashanku or Chinto were the names of influential Chinese fighters and the corresponding kata are a record of their fighting principles as understood and captured by local Okinawans in a kata form (the only good recording device they had); This Is for your “traditional” Shotokan chap a complete paradigm shift. It explains the reason for why Kata is important and more importantly why it is so important to spend time and effort doing the right kind of kata practice. Kata shifts from being an auxillary activity undertaken because its was traditional, but essentially an asthetic, to an essential library of records or mnemonics, that describe the fundamentals of the fighting art itself. This impacts on whole swathes of Kihon practice as well. It changes the distance of engagment when fighting which changes the emphasis on the application of the basic techniques we do in drill work. It leads to recognising that the Stances and the techniques we undertake are just a snap shot at the end of the movement (the follow through as an expression of body weight shift or close range striking) . Understanding Kata Principles/implications enables the karate practitioner to recognise that it is the bit inbetween each stance and technique that is important not the "Full Kimae kodak moment" at the end. In the 80's and 90's you could read Quotes from senior JKA sensei's that Karate is Kata, Kata is Karate, nod sagely at the vast enigmatic/esoteric thing that is kata and completely miss the point (as I suspect did they). Kata becomes a means to an end rather than an end in itself. (I'll get off my soap box now...)
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Post by kensei on May 11, 2012 11:40:37 GMT
Kata becomes a means to an end rather than an end in itself. (I'll get off my soap box now...) I would be the first to support that soap box in this case. I for one think that to much emphasis is placed on tournament sparring today. I think I have told the story of the young lad that came to our club and during dojo sparring mistook it for tournament point sparring and I gave him a licken. The issue lies with the "I tagged him and won" mentality. In Kata they dance threw a performance that is meant to shock and impress the crowd, but many of them have no idea what the applications are for the Kata (or implications as it were) and half of the winners dont know enough about the Kata they just won with to teach a class on the Kata outside of it being a dance class for their Kata. I really do believe that Kata is Karate and Karate is Kata.
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Post by th0mas on May 14, 2012 19:50:47 GMT
... and half of the winners dont know enough about the Kata they just won with to teach a class on the Kata outside of it being a dance class for their Kata.... and Just like the competition fighting the kata form is evolving to maximise the judges scoring...which for a large number of clubs is the key priority for kata practice (...and has been so for the large Shotokan organisations in the UK for nearly it's whole history) (of course there have been a few enlightened souls....you know who you are ... ) ...but it is that awful group bunkai stuff they do that is soooo cringe worthy. Just add music, a black Gi and some bo staff stuff and we have XMA. (..and yes before anybody complains, it is all very athletic and pretty, and nobody can take away the skill required to do it ...but for me it should be the trivial side of our Art that we do for fun and not be what 90% of people think Karate is..) ...I also recognise that relalist kata applications as a group exercise would look like some drunken brawl , although it would be quite fun to watch
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Post by kensei on May 15, 2012 11:47:55 GMT
...and the least said about the pronunciation of "Wankan" Kata the better ! ;D Yah, been hearing some rather interesting pronunciations on that...or the wife is just mad at me....makes sense...she does not do Karate!
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Post by Paul Bedard on May 21, 2012 13:53:01 GMT
...and the least said about the pronunciation of "Wankan" Kata the better ! ;D Do this to often & you can go blind!!! ;D ;D
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