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Post by Rob S on May 10, 2012 8:11:07 GMT
Just a general query.
The OSS Header above features the Tokaido logo (Inyo) that became synonymous with Nihon Karate Kyokai, and the Tora no maki that Hoan Kosugi made for Gichin Funakoshi. This made me start thinking.
Why do so many Shotokan sites use the JKA logo and the tiger together (Example OSS and Shotokan Karate Magazine)?
Why do so many people who are not JKA use the label on their belt, or worse the kanji for Nihon Karate Kyokai? Especially when they have never been a member of JKA or their dan grade was not issued by JKA?
Is the JKA brand so synonymous with Shotokan that people just automatically utilise it without thinking?
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Post by Allan Shepherd on May 10, 2012 9:01:54 GMT
Hello Bob
Are you Mr Sidoli?
Apologies if this is wrong but does the "JKA/NKK" have patented rights of "The Rising Sun" logo? I seem to remember (maybe wrong here) that the "ownership" is with another Country and not Japan.
Yes, I agree it has become synonymous with the JKA and also a lot of things "Shotokan" ish. Being a petrol head a similar thing happened with Ford/Carroll Shelby/AC/Cobra in the motor industry.
I was originally taught "JKA Shotokan" and although I have trained with several small and large organisations over the years the "core" of what they have all taught is "JKA Shotokan" which is in turn what I have passed on bearing in mind the changes and fragmentations that have happened within that organisation and the organisations that followed. Change apparently is progress, some would agree whilst some would disagree, that is the nature of what we are as human beings.
Best Regards Allan
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Post by Rob S on May 10, 2012 9:28:25 GMT
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Post by kensei on May 10, 2012 11:45:25 GMT
the JKA headquarters has "requested" strongly that all member groups in all countries NOT trade mark the use of these symbols. This means they can not designate legally that in their country they own the symbols that suggest JKA affiliation. However, from what I have read they do not require that countries with members not use the name or symbols.
What this implies is that as long as you are a member in good standing with the JKA you are able to "use" the symbols and call yourself JKA, you just cant claim ownership of it...just membership in that group.
I for one support this whole heartedly. If you are a member of the JKA then why not use it...but it limits those that are not JKA (theoretically) From using the JKA name or symbols.
And I would have to ask, if you are not JKA why would you infer that you were? Only a few reasons I can think of and one is fraud! The other is showing your history, but why not use your new organization or Dojo name and new symbols? Oh, yah...fraud!
the Inyo is a JKA symbol but the Toro no maki is not really seen as a JKA symbol as much as it is a Shotokan one. Now, having said that other groups outside of the JKA use the Inyo for their symbolism...but if you are Karate and you are not JKA why use it.
As far as our web site, we have JKA people (myself included) and Shotokan groups outside of the JKA....so, why not have both to symbolize a coming together of membership from different back grounds to share and be in a non-political group that seeks only to share and grow as a group?
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Post by Allan Shepherd on May 10, 2012 16:18:05 GMT
Hello Robert and James
Going back to my posting and each of yours it would appear that the JKA do not have patented rights to the Inyo so why is it that other organisations for example KUGB, UKTKF etc cannot in theory use it so long as it does not have "Japan Karate Association" or "Nihon Karate Kyokai" under same? Now come to think of it maybe it was Australia (or Canada) that owned the rights?? Is it used by other organisations because they have an "affinity" with what is in affect JKA Shotokan?
It would appear that another reason why groups outside of the JKA use the Inyo (and the Tora No Maki) for their symbolism is quite simple...because they can. Yes, it is wrong to claim to be JKA/NKK when you are cleary not but it is wrong to continue to train and teach "JKA style Shotokan" since "imitation" is the greatest form of flattery is it not?
Going back to the petrol head scenario, many years ago a Mr John Dodd built a one off special car that had a Merlin? plane engine (made by Rolls Royce) in situ with a Rolls Royce grill up front and won a court case to legally call it a Rolls Royce.
Best Regards Allan
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Post by kensei on May 11, 2012 11:34:28 GMT
Hello Robert and James Going back to my posting and each of yours it would appear that the JKA do not have patented rights to the Inyo so why is it that other organisations for example KUGB, UKTKF etc cannot in theory use it so long as it does not have "Japan Karate Association" or "Nihon Karate Kyokai" under same? to be frank I dont know if the JKA has that patented. I know that as a business in Canada if you want to register a name the government does a name check and if one exists that is close to your name you can not use it. As for the Toro no maki and Inyo I think its more of a issue if used and suggesting you are JKA. Most honest businessmen know that if they use them and "suggest" relationship to the JKA A)it might look dishonest and they may lose membership and B) they forever tie themselves, ever so loosly to the JKA and some are looking to branch out and be honest with who they are. Many also dont adopt it out of respect for the seniors who were JKA and brought them up.Could not imagine Enoeda Senseis students trying to use a symbol that may cause them to feel like they are doing something he would not approve of. Now come to think of it maybe it was Australia (or Canada) that owned the rights?? Is it used by other organisations because they have an "affinity" with what is in affect JKA Shotokan? It was in Australia that they tried and succeeded in putting a copy right on the Inyo and when the JKA was told about this they requested, per their rules, that the JKA/A would turn over the copy right to them at teh JKA/A's expense. They laid out their rules a long time ago, if you join you need to follow the rules. I dont see anything wrong with it and they are just trying to protect their brand. Smart business if you ask me! It would appear that another reason why groups outside of the JKA use the Inyo (and the Tora No Maki) for their symbolism is quite simple...because they can. Yes, it is wrong to claim to be JKA/NKK when you are cleary not but it is wrong to continue to train and teach "JKA style Shotokan" since "imitation" is the greatest form of flattery is it not? Would it be a great form of flattery if you started turning out computers and said "this is my new Apple computer line" or if you developed a new TV and said "look a new Sanyo line".....if everyone did that and some TV/computers were not as "up to standards" as the ones the REAL companies were selling then you get a problem. It can be very flattering if someone asks you what style of Karate you teach and you say JKA style shotokan, but if you start teaching and it looks like a cross between Tae Kwon do and mud wrestling, well thats not as flattering. I think the JKA is simply trying to keep standards and their market base safe. Besides, you wake up one morning and say "I am going out on my own to (insert relevent reasons) and then in place of A) finding a new student base or bringing one with you, B) establishing a new tradition with a new name,C) realling showing you can go out on your own....you latch onto the JKA Teet even tighter hoping name recognition and leaching off a tradition will help your business...Damn the fact that all the reasons you can think of for leaving in the first place, or all the reasons your instructor left seem to matter less than the bucks you make glidding on the JKA name! Going back to the petrol head scenario, many years ago a Mr John Dodd built a one off special car that had a Merlin? plane engine (made by Rolls Royce) in situ with a Rolls Royce grill up front and won a court case to legally call it a Rolls Royce. Best Regards Allan Now, thats some liberal courts! If that happened in the states to say Ford....that guy would be living in a cardboard box when they were done with him...and he would be leasing it from Ford Corp! Many years ago I saw a cooking show (and yes this will make sense in a second). the chef was cooking a specialty of the deep south of the USA. He took a deboned chicken and stuffed it with stuffing, Cut open a duck and deboned it as well. he then put sun dried tomatoes and a bunch of herbs on the outside of the chicken...and stuffed the chicken inside the duck! Oh, but he was not done yet! Next he took a HUGE turkey and deboned it as well....by the way they sped that part up because...well holly crap that would take a long time. He then took mushrooms and the like and stuffed the Duck in the Turkey with that mix between them. He then sewed the Turkey closed, wrapped it in tinfoil, baked the hell out of it and presented it to his "guests". Alot of the time I go to local "JKA" clubs that are not with us I see a mishmash of techniques, different arts wrapped in and ideas and philosophies that are obviously not JKA. they call themselves "JKA SHOTOKAN STYLE" groups or simply "JKA KARATE STYLE" groups...but to be frank they are to far away from the source, some never having been taught by a JKA instructor...for a few generations and in one case the guy was taught Shotokan Kata by a Shito ryu guy and promoted by said Shito ryu guy to a Godan in Shotokan. Some of the "Changes" to Kata that this guy had were NO place near the JKA style of Kata...or any other style I have seen. In many of these cases the problem is that they present themselves as something and you never know what you are actually getting, like the Tur-Duck-In you are never sure what you are getting unless the subject matter is prue and from the source! (see it tied itn) ;D Point being that you should be honest with yourself, your students, and the potential students you have, dont use images that suggest something if its not true and dont present what you are doing as something it may not be. I am not saying JKA Karate is the best or only true style of Shotokan Karate, I am not saying that what they do is always right, nor am I saying its wrong...what I am saying is that you should present what you are doing honestly and not be fraudulant in your presentation. That and that car guy better not pull that crap with Ford! J
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Post by Allan Shepherd on May 11, 2012 14:29:36 GMT
Hello James
Many thanks for your very comprehensive reply which is very much appreciated. Going back to Bob's original posting it appears that the "ownership" of the symbols have free range PROVIDING you do not advertise that you are something that you are not.
Moving on from there we also have the actual use of the symbols and title(s) on dogi!! If the JKA Inyo and wording of JKA or NKK was patented surely dogi manufacturers would not be allowed to produce garments and obi without the express permission from, in this case the JKA? All JKA franchised items would be produced by and ordered from them direct.
Best Regards Allan
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Post by Rob S on May 11, 2012 17:38:07 GMT
Allan,
Commercial entities would want to sell. They cannot ascertain each and every purchaser is a bona fide member of the JKA for example. So they sell, and let the association decide on action etc. etc.
What amuses me (if that is the right word) is the people who wear JKA on their obi, when they did not grade to the dan with JKA, or their current dan is not registered there.
In fact we can see some gi vendors put the writing on the belt as a matter of commercial retail, and then sell it as Shotokan (I can't remember where I saw it, but one ad JKA under the title Shotokan).
I am aware of one ex JKA instructor who created his own group. He ensured that both the name of the group, and the logo utilised were as far away from the words and look of the JKA as is possible. To me that seems more than reasonable. Of course his karate is very JKA'esque.
Others keep the initials JKA in their name, in one way or the other.
Each to their own.
My question at the beginning of the thread was why people use the two logos, and in particular together. Even one well known JKA leaver utilised both side by side so to speak after he had left.
No faulting their JKA karate levels. Just interested in why the retain the symbolism.
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Post by fujicolt on May 14, 2012 22:59:03 GMT
Rob, Whilst not sure why you raised this point I believe you are seeing Symbolism in a far too narrow context here. The JKA have to accept that there are now many variations of SHOTOKAN now as a Karate form. they have had people leave (Kanazawa Sensei and the SKI being the first major one (and we all know the politics and power struggles of that one.) and many others since so they need to accept many - and not just the Japanese have a lineage! THere are many examples of smbolism in our human history and some - if really evaluated - would be considered ridiculous but are accepted and ignored as such. I am Confident that Dod and Liam used the smbols to signal - this is a place for Shotokan Karateka (from anywhere) to come, be accepted and enjoy like minded company - Nothing more sinister than that! Many examples of symbolism sending messages throughout human history if you take the time to look! such as and Somethings transcend copyright IMHO!
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Post by Paul Bedard on May 15, 2012 3:50:22 GMT
I hope I don`t sound to foolish here, but I`m sure that the rising sun has been around longer than the JKA, also the Tora No Maki was made for Master Funakoshi long before there was a JKA. When we were JKA the Tora no maki was black in the center of the sun. Also we never used the tiger with the little star below the tail. I first saw this example with Oshima`s group the SKA. OSS has the Inyo separate from the tiger in Red, this is different than the JKA. Also even though we have left the JKA my first three dan certificates/diplomas are JKA, no one has taken this away so how far can this go. I still wear a Tokaido belt & sometimes gi, just my creat is different. We now use a light background with a red tiger. Shotokan will always be symbolized by the Tora no maki as it is Gichin Funakoshi who made it famous, not an organization. Also the rising sun is representative of Dai Nippon ( Greater Japan ), so let me see; Shotokan was Funakoshi karate popularized by the Japanese `hmmmm`
Osu Paul B
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Post by kensei on May 15, 2012 11:45:58 GMT
Use of a Symbol to suggest that you train in Shotokan is fine, I am not talking legal ranglings here, that is way above my pay grade!
What I am saying is that the JKA has the right to stop people from using the name and logo together to fraudulently suggest they are teaching and part of the JKA. if a group has the Inyo and the name being used is "Billi bobs shotokan ryu" then heck, who can blame him for using the symbol to suggest he teaches shotokan....however change that up to the same symbol and add "Silli bobs JKA Shotokan Ryu" and you got an issue.
first off I totally respect Kanazawa and others who leave the JKA and use their own organization rules. if they were linked direct to the JKA like Kanazawa was then hell use the Inyo or tiger to show people that you were once their and what you teach is what they teach....however, if you split from a group that split from a group that once had ties to a group that was training with a guy that once took a class at the head quarters in Japan......Well, call it what it is and dont defraud people by suggesting that you teach JKA Karate direct from the source!
The problem is today we see a variety of different shotokan groups and some are so far from JKA style Karate that its scary! But they refer to a distant instructor in a organization some can not hope to understand and say they teach the same thing.
Be respectful of your art and call it what it is or go and actually join the JKA and learn their style.
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Post by fujicolt on May 16, 2012 13:21:17 GMT
Be respectful of your art and call it what it is or go and actually join the JKA and learn their style. Read more: ourshotokanstudies.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=welcome&thread=866&page=1#6877#ixzz1v2QKs8hiGet your point James but the strange thing is - and you may not understand this if you not UK based/originated - One of the reasons I left the (then) JKA representative organisation was to enable me to follow the JKA style of doing Shotokan more closely! Sounds daft I know but if you had been here at the time you would 'get it' I do however get the point about some whom use various symbolic processes to make their group 'look' JKA - Logo's, Tokaido Gi's and Belts cut a certain way, Badges etc BUT close examination can show thier actual practice and performance of Karate is far from 'As the JKA actually do it' and then there are others that are very close to the original although no longer actually JKA affiliated - ASK and you will find as such! ;D (did yer see what I did there - a little clue and play on words HAHA!
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Post by grunners4 on May 16, 2012 14:14:15 GMT
ah Steve, but maybe too clever ....google "ASK karate" and you get about 5 groups (including a Bill "Superfoot" Wallace group) as well as Dave Hazards' Academy....things become even more blurred with org's names - JKA/IJKA/IJKA(x2)/WJKA/JSKA - all trying to show links to the 'old' JKA.
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Post by fujicolt on May 16, 2012 22:58:55 GMT
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Post by grunners4 on May 17, 2012 8:08:03 GMT
just keeping you honest Steve!
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Post by dek1 on May 17, 2012 19:19:31 GMT
In my short time in Shotokan i have been in the SKIGB under Sensei Shiro Asano and the JKS Scotland group under JKS Japan that was formed by the late Sensei Asai. To be honest our clubs style of training is not really changed and I understand both groups have lineage roots to the origional JKA groups. If they chose or dont chose to promote their history who can really complain. I find the sad thing about Karate is politics
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Post by fujicolt on May 23, 2012 21:02:43 GMT
just keeping you honest Steve! How very very dare you Andrew - it is plainly telling it like it is that normally gets me in hot water! Good Grief!!
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Post by kensei on May 28, 2012 16:32:53 GMT
Okay, so say you open an apple cart that sells candy apples. you bust your arse through some very tough times and begin training people to franchise out your product and you bust your butt training them to be exactly the same as your standards..even if the apples are slightly different your franchise people are to use the same "candy coat" on each of them.
Few years pass and you find out that a few of your fanchise members are now selling apples with a slightly different coating on it...calling it the same thing and making money off your name!
What do you do?
My point being is that if you want to teach Karate, you have a JKA root but you leave...their can only be one reason for keeping the name...or promoting yourself under it if you get what I mean.
I know that is a very "Painted with the same brush" mentality..but I was meaning to be general in this case!
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Post by jimlukelkc on May 29, 2012 8:58:22 GMT
I teach Karate. It may mostly look and feel like Shotokan because that is how I was taught. I see no reason to change things that work for me but neither will I disregard something just because Shotokan does not teach it or because it not part of some limited syllabus. In my advertising I state that we practice Shotokan because I believe we adhere to the principles and training methodology of Shotokan but I also state that we use influences taken from other martial arts too. And why not ? If wing-chun teaches us something useful, use it. If you are teaching throws, then teach Ukemi if only for safety sake. If you wish to include bag work and boxing is giving you better intstruction or weapons or ground work...... Shotokan is a principle, not a style. Choose one styleover another and you have set a limitation. Select a principle and leave yourself free to add another.
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Post by kensei on May 29, 2012 18:32:55 GMT
I teach Karate. It may mostly look and feel like Shotokan because that is how I was taught. I see no reason to change things that work for me but neither will I disregard something just because Shotokan does not teach it or because it not part of some limited syllabus. In my advertising I state that we practice Shotokan because I believe we adhere to the principles and training methodology of Shotokan but I also state that we use influences taken from other martial arts too. And why not ? If wing-chun teaches us something useful, use it. If you are teaching throws, then teach Ukemi if only for safety sake. If you wish to include bag work and boxing is giving you better intstruction or weapons or ground work...... Shotokan is a principle, not a style. Choose one styleover another and you have set a limitation. Select a principle and leave yourself free to add another. If I am reading this correct you advertise as Shotokan style Karate....not JKA style shotokan. That is my point. If everyone said they taught shotokan then that is fine. Shotokan is a set of principles. But what others are doing is being specific and saying they are JKA...that is 100% different.
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Post by Rob S on May 29, 2012 22:25:26 GMT
This is why I posted the thread. Why the need to hang onto those three initials? Why the need to preserve a logo that you are possibly not entitled to wear? Why the need to want to link to this, when actually you have moved on, or perhaps never even been there?
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Post by kensei on May 30, 2012 13:31:23 GMT
My thoughts!..... Why the need to hang onto those three initials? You notice that the JKA is well respected/recognized and you want to be associated with that dispite not being well known or respected in your area......or......you have a strong root in the JKA and want to be part of the history...but not part of the "now". Why the need to preserve a logo that you are possibly not entitled to wear? Its like McDonalds...if you won a burger joint, would you not want to be part of that money and fame? I mean face it the magic of the name and logo are a draw......or...you are to damn lazy to do your own marketing and work and want to get free advertising and name recognition with out doing any work! Why the need to want to link to this, when actually you have moved on, or perhaps never even been there? I think that its one of three reasons: 1. you are to damn lazy to to your own work and have very little moral fiber when it comes to steeling others thunder. I mean they have put a tone of time, effort and money into promoting their own name, logo and stamp of recognition on things and good or bad the JKA name is very well known. Some people would steel the name of anything, do just about anything to get success with out the proper amount of work...and it often back fires in the long run! 2. They dont get that Shotokan is not JKA and JKA is not Shotokan....what they are teaching is Shotokan...a style of Karate developed by Funakoshi Sensei with many roots and branches that all teach similar styles of Karate.....JKA is an organization run by a group of men that are dedicated to the organization created by Nakayama and peers to promote their branch of Shotokan. If you teach Shotokan then PROMOTE that you teach Shotokan...You can not teach JKA...you can belong to the JKA but you cant teach an organization! Basically, the teacher...does not know what they are talking about... 3. they think that its okay because they were taught that the name of what they do is JKA...or their instructor somehow felt that the amount of time they spent in the JKA entitles them to use the name when refering to the style/organization. However they left one or two generations ago and seem to forget that the others are still their (in the JKA) Busting their butts to make it work...let go! When we were not JKA we did not call ourselves JKA...we tried a few variations of the names...but when we came back to the JKA we went back to JKA Manitoba. I believe that if you are not part of the JKA directly then you need to change your name to reflect you are teaching Shotokan, but not on the same branch as the JKA is. keeping the name if you are not part of the JKA shows lack of education, understanding and or screples! but thats just my thoughts.
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Post by jimlukelkc on May 30, 2012 13:47:13 GMT
Kensei you are reading it correct, I make no mention of JKA nor would I. I use the name of the association we are affiliated to .
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