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Post by fujicolt on May 17, 2012 1:43:10 GMT
I am being very unfair and very out of context by posting this partial quote (from another thread) from James James (Known here as Kensei) but it so hits the nail in regard to what you have to do to ever get better at Karate i just think it is perfect! 'and the chance of finding someone good enough to make you good is slim from what I have seen!' Read more: ourshotokanstudies.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=martialarts&thread=851&page=1#6829#ixzz1v5NZClCSif you go and look it up you will see that James was discussing other MA's but I feel his wise words also echo with Karate. Ultimately 'What goes IN will influence what comes OUT! as a result there are many very frustrated Karateka out there - go visit as many forums as you can - whom seem to crave the required knowledge but simply cannot find it! You may well ask 'How on earth i can suggest, let alone state that? but when one looks at some of the enquiries, Comments, statements etc made, regarding such fundamental questions it does beg the question:- Is the standard of Karate Instruction out there as consistantly as good as it should be considering Karate went worldwide many decades ago? What do you think?
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Post by Allan Shepherd on May 17, 2012 20:01:37 GMT
Hello Steve
Here is me thinking "as good as it gets" was about the 1997 American romantic comedy with Jack Nicholson and Helen Hunt!!
Yes I agree "What goes IN will influence what comes OUT" but since we are masters of our own destiny we have ourselves to blame ultimately. Primarily because we do not know the good from the bad since all this is new to us. We have a wealth of very very experienced Karateka out there but lets be honest when it comes to joe public and their interest in all of the Martial Arts not just karate they take the first instructor that comes along.
Research in all walks of life is the key to gaining knowledge from those who we ultimately consider to be our mentors. Visit different disciplines in the immediate area but consider travelling slightly further than expected. Decide what we want as oppossed to what someone wants us to have. There is ALWAYS someone out there who can provide us with the knowledge.
From a personal perspective I think the standard of karate instruction out there has declined over the years because a lot of it is money orientated and joe public associate cost against standards ie if it is expensive then it must be good!!!. I have visited clubs over the years and watched students having grades bestowed upon them to keep the finances coming in. Needless to say I stopped visiting them simply because what they had been taught and graded to could not be used as a stepping stone for advancement.
On the other hand there are many many instructors out there who are quite happy to keep things ticking over with a small amount of students working on the basis that quality in their students is relected by their grades simply because it is not money orientated.
Anyone who considers that they get to a point of "as good as it gets" has failed to see the bigger picture not just in their Martial Art but in life in general. There is ALWAYS room for improvement, that is the nature of us as human beings so please everyone do not accept anything less.
Best Regards Allan
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Post by Bob Davis on May 17, 2012 21:06:25 GMT
To be honest, I think part of the problem IS that karate went worldwide decades ago. Obviously I can only comment on my own experiences and localities but I feel we are suffering from the inevitable result of Karate becoming a worldwide brand which has been disseminated by what is basically a franchise operation and, like most franchises, it's not about individuality and flair but having a recognisable "house brand" and a standardised product. You can go into Starbucks (other coffee chains are available ) anywhere in the world and get a coffee, it may not be great coffee BUT it'll be coffee and it'll be the same where ever you get it. Pretty much the same thing happened with karate, it became a standardised product that was supposed to look the same where ever you got it (that's not to say the intention was that it become mediocre but it is the fairly inevitable outcome ). The problem we have now (if others, in fact, see it as a problem) is that we are now probably 4th or 5th generation down the line of the franchise chain and many instructors out there now have never been exposed to anything more than the standard product and are (apparently) blissfully unaware that karate CAN be anything more than the standard product (it never occurred to them to give it any thought, and to be fair, individual thought has never really been actively encouraged in "mainstream" karate). Unfortunately you can have this conversation with many a karate-ka and they'll nod and agree with you and say "yes, isn't it awful how bad some karate is elsewhere, aren't we lucky that our standards are still so high when everybody else is sliding" and then go back to their comfortable self contained karate heaven and never consider the irony of their situation. I've known Dan grades who look at you bemused when you try and show them anything even remotely outside the familiar and you can tell by the look that they are thinking "but we do this, that's what karate is" To return to the analogy, much as there is great coffee to be had out there there is also a lot of great karate out there BUT you won't know unless you go and look for it and teach yourself to understand the difference. You may be perfectly happy with "Starbucks" karate (sorry, meant coffee ) and for the majority who just want something hot, wet and quick (still talking coffee ) it's possibly perfectly adequate but with an open mind and a little imagination there could be great things to be discovered just around the corner (there could also be total cr*p but you'll at least have learned to tell the difference )
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Post by fujicolt on May 17, 2012 21:13:05 GMT
Yes Allan - a good film with some now established Stars making there first big appearances but not the subject of my post I was merely asking: Is the standard of Karate Instruction out there as consistantly as good as it should be considering Karate went worldwide many decades ago? Read more: ourshotokanstudies.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=tech&action=post&thread=873&page=1#ixzz1vACJztnCand wondering what peoples opinions and thoughts on that identified question was? Other MA's aside, as they weren't the target of my question, i would be interested to hear peoples comments etc. Karate - as an established MA has been around longer than the vast majority of others and thus has had time to create consistently good instruction etc but has it achieved this?
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Post by malk103 on May 17, 2012 22:01:13 GMT
"Is the standard of Karate Instruction out there as consistently as good as it should be considering Karate went worldwide many decades ago?"
I don't know is the short answer.... I aim to train with as many people as possible so I can hopefully one day tell the difference between good and very good.
On the one hand I would hope that anyone who takes on the role of instructor would do their utmost to pass on the best Karate they could and continue their own lessons. Sadly I know of one other instructor a couple of towns away who is "not so good" - but his students will never know and will possibly reach Brown belt without reaching a certain standard.
On the other hand Karate is to blame for things being soo inconsistent, going back to coffee - you are guaranteed the same amount at the same temperature with the same sized cups and the same taste ANYWHERE in the world. Karate has loads of organisations, governing bodies and federations who all seem to be setting there own goals and rules, Karate should be allowed to evolve but it would be nice if it was at least similar throughout. Even if you look for books on Karate you will find hundreds all telling you that "this is Karate". Take sports like Rugby, Football, Tennis - they are the same, there is a set of rules to work to, you wouldn't have an instructor in Town X start up football lessons but be allowed to create new rules or leave bits out.
As always i've probably not explained myself the best way but hope you get my drift....
One of the biggest things I have learnt about Karate is that the syllabus and the full range of techniques are 2 very different things so probably naive of me to suggest a one stop rule book would even be possible.
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Post by fujicolt on May 17, 2012 22:40:20 GMT
Really Mal - do you not think that at least teaching the full arsenal would be a good start - it ain't hard to do - if you know it that is!
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Post by malk103 on May 18, 2012 6:31:05 GMT
"One of the biggest things I have learnt about Karate is that the syllabus and the full range of techniques are 2 very different things so probably naive of me to suggest a one stop rule book would even be possible." Sorry - badly worded.... It would be a big book to have absolutely everything inside it but I doubt if everyone would agree to it. I think trying to teach the full range should be every instructors aim - it's certainly mine and I add to my knowledge as much as possible. Can't wait until next month!!!
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Post by Bob Davis on May 18, 2012 7:32:05 GMT
Sorry, this demonstrates part of the point I was trying to make (badly I would guess . Part of the problem, as I see it, was the trying to make karate like a sport with a defined set of rules and as such it became very limiting, only those things within the rules (the grading syllabus) became worth studying because only they counted. Because of this you end up with a system where nobody asks "why?" or "what if" which leads to instructors who teach parrot fashion what they've learned without having the depth of understanding they should have, this inevitably leads to a fall in standards.
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Post by fujicolt on May 23, 2012 20:33:07 GMT
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Post by elmar on May 23, 2012 21:12:30 GMT
"Is the standard of Karate Instruction out there as consistently as good as it should be ... Easy answer is "no" - but the trouble with this is that "karate" has no standardized definition. What the heck is "karate"? A training method? If so for what? A way to fight? An historical anachronism? A martial ballet? Combat acupuncture? Pugilism with some combat chiropractic thrown in for good measure? Until you define this, you cannot really comment on the quality of the Instruction (as requested), much less mush all teaching into the same single number ruler.
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Post by fujicolt on May 23, 2012 22:52:33 GMT
Point taken Elmar and well put - so I shall change my question Is the Standard of Shotokan Karate (you're correct I was too blanket in my question) as good as it should be in order to produce the potential for those studying to be able to gain the levels of understanding and skills that quality Instruction can and does produce? I hope that makes sense if not let me know and i will gladly reword.
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Post by malk103 on May 24, 2012 7:33:31 GMT
Bob - maybe there should be a much bigger rule book, it shouldn't limit what is learnt but it should maybe increase the number of techniques. My thinking behind this is to encourage/force small independant clubs to teach a lot more than just the standard syllabus.
Even if someone is with a poor club/instructor then it is also the responsibility of the Karateka to teach themselves more about the subject and not just rely on 1-2 hours a week. They should at least have a grasp of the basics, some combinations and several Kata, it is a 2 way street so they should investigate it themselves and also go off to train with others.
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Post by Bob Davis on May 24, 2012 12:33:20 GMT
No sure this is the problem, the current syllabus style teaching was brought about by the large org's. Some of the small independants I know are that purely BECAUSE they want to teach more than the "standard syllabus" but are not allowed within the structure. On the subject of student responsibility for their own learning I'm not going to argue too hard as I basically agree HOWEVER (as has been said elsewhere) you need to remember that for the average student karate is just a hobby/passtime, it's something they do for a couple of hours on whatever night they are free and nothing more. Ocassionally you'll get one who gets the bug and will become a serious student (they are few and far between). This is where the "good" instructor will support and encourage them to expand their knowledge. You also must remember that the average new student fresh of the street knows absolutley nothing about karate, if they start in a dojo where the ethos is "this is what we do", "this is all that we do" and "you don't need to think about anything just train and do as you are told" then (even if they stay long term) why would it ever occur to them to look outside their small world? Sad but true.
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Post by makoto on May 24, 2012 15:17:11 GMT
What is karate? What is shotokan karate? Getting to the point where everyone has their own version. Bunkai centered shotokan karate, traditional karate, the 3K's karate, etc etc. I do shotokan kata's but, my karate is nothing like JKA karate. So, am I still shotokan? I think, you go where your questions lead you. And if you started from karate, and it was karate that gave you the questions, then your answers would also be karate. Maybe different from my karate, but still karate. That is the best we can hope to get. But, for this forum. What is Shotokan? Is it JKA and JKA like karate only. Does Shotokai, or Oshima karate have a place here?
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Post by fujicolt on May 24, 2012 23:09:39 GMT
What is karate? What is shotokan karate? Getting to the point where everyone has their own version. Bunkai centered shotokan karate, traditional karate, the 3K's karate, etc etc. I do shotokan kata's but, my karate is nothing like JKA karate. So, am I still shotokan? I think, you go where your questions lead you. And if you started from karate, and it was karate that gave you the questions, then your answers would also be karate. Maybe different from my karate, but still karate. That is the best we can hope to get. But, for this forum. What is Shotokan? Is it JKA and JKA like karate only. Does Shotokai, or Oshima karate have a place here?I can only speak for my self John - but of course! In fact I think this forum and it's members have been very open to discussing not only various approaches to Shotokan Karate but also other styles/systems and approaches to OUR SHOTOKAN STUDIES and I think that can be easily observed. You appear to be unsure about what you are studying and how to define it - given your post content. I have always felt i am Studying Shotokan Karate but see it as an evolving process that includes looking elsewhere to help me understand what Shotokan already has but also what it has not (Groundwork for example) and i find that approach to it all interesting and enriching. As long as the different appraoches seem to make sense I have no problem with that but when they are politically, powerbase and financially lead I lose interest!
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Post by kensei on May 28, 2012 16:20:33 GMT
"Is the standard of Karate Instruction out there as consistantly as good as it should be considering Karate went worldwide many decades ago?"
Bit of an unfair question in the end isnt it? the variety of reasons for entering and staying in Karate vary greatly....also the type of training is and should be different depending on the goals associated with those training.
As an instructor I would NEVER train a person that wants to be a regional/national/world champion in Karate...the same as someone that wants to learn how to defend themselves walking home..or the same as a proffessional security person...or the same as someone wanting to just have fun and drop some weight.
The instructor that grew up in Karate learning how to be a athlete and be the best in the region may not have the same level of understanding in Defensive tactics as an instructor that focuses on this.
My point being that we need to be a bit more specific...and to be frank...I have seen a variety of people who are schooled in Sport Karate trying to teach a generic approach and it simply does not work...well it does not work well!
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Post by fujicolt on Jun 6, 2012 22:58:36 GMT
Sorry James but i think you are actually being unfair - the question is to the point and IMHO a Good Instructor can, and should be able to teach all on your list of possible students BUT are there many whom actually could produce that consistency? i merely asked for opinions on what i believe to be a to the point question. Why do you see it as unfair - again an attempt at a to the point question
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Post by kensei on Jun 7, 2012 15:00:30 GMT
I think a good instructor can teach sport Karate and self defense as well as a myriad of other components that make up todays Karate....but can they teach everthing well...maybe well enough..but to the highest standard...No way in heck! the truth is that if you have never been in a real violent situation your grasp of violent situations...well its limited and I dont think you should teach a student how to react to a violent situation if you have never been in one! and Yes, I know of a few who do teach this...and have never been in a real fight...outside of hockey in some cases. As for sport Karate, I can teach it...but to be the best, you need to train undersome one that has been their...and while I held my own regionally, tournaments held little value for me and I never went to the Shoto cup nor have I ever taught someone who has....my point is that I may not be the best person for a high end athlete that is a national competitior to come to to push their game to the next level! all I am saying is some people do some things better than other things! And some dont do anything well!
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Post by fujicolt on Jun 7, 2012 21:27:07 GMT
Mmmmm...... although deeply diluted and under 'rules' Sport Karate is still a simple change of physical exchanges under stress - and I would argue that whilst it remains an important aspect of Karate - Instructors should be able to teach it just as they MUST be able to teach the far more complicated SD requirements But that is simply my opinion as one whom know tis possible
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Post by kensei on Jun 8, 2012 12:19:25 GMT
Sport Karate can be taught....but their are different levels of skill in this...as with other things.
First off I can teach the rules, teach the basics of tournament Kumite and drill students on these...but their is another level of thinking that only a true sport guy has. One of my seniors was a national champ and his sister went to the worlds...they talk about making points and making sure the ref sees it. Dealing with that is way outside of my thinking process...I am more of a "SMASH EM" kind of instructor...coming from my back ground in real spats!
anyone can teach most if not all aspects of Karate...but how successfully, well thats another thing all together...that...and I dont like Shiai playing!
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