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Post by makoto on Jun 27, 2012 15:25:39 GMT
Do not mean this to make this a pissing contest on who knows what. Actually, I am being selfish. What technical and/or mental elements go into making the best standing on the spot reverse punch?
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jun 27, 2012 15:51:30 GMT
Small circles.
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Post by malk103 on Jun 27, 2012 19:48:25 GMT
Correct use of hips and actually hitting something.
I helped someone the other day by getting his sparring partner into a body armoured padded thing and then told him to try different techniques. The penny dropped when the parnter was knocked back the most when he used his hips to deliver the punch.
I've also used a drill with hitting a football, it starts off by seeing how far the ball can be punched with just the arm moving, then how hard it hits the far wall of the dojo when done with the hips.
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Post by makoto on Jun 27, 2012 22:45:35 GMT
I am looking for actual mechanics of a punch. @jim, could explain further about small circles? @ Malk, thanks for the mention of correct use of hips. That needed to be said.
What I am wondering is there some small tweek I could make to my own reverse punch to make it better. Is there some small thing that you all do that no one else does but you feel it helps in making your RevPch stronger(even by a fraction).
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Post by hamhead on Jun 28, 2012 0:11:04 GMT
The main points I focus on are: 1. making sure that the hip of the punching hand does not drop when going from hamni to Shomen position but stays level. Most people don't realize they are doing this. The way to tell is if the outer side of your back foot comes off the floor when you are in shomen position (ie your weight is transfered to the inner edge of your foot and you feel a stretch on the inside of you groin at the top of your hip). This I believe results in a loss of power and less stability on impact. 2. Correct use of the back leg to drive and propel the hip forward from hamni to shomen. an important point I focus on is to make sure that when in hamni and there is a natural bend in the back knee, that the knee is not pointing to the side but forward. (This bending out to the side causes the hip to drop as in 1.) I achieve this by focusing on the back foot facing as far forward as possible and as flat as possible. 3. Not bringing the hip too far back in hanmi. I believe that in hanmi the body should be half facing or diagonal and not to facing to the side completely as a lot of people do (eg in kizami zuki, esp. before kizamizuki gyakuzuki combination). I find this pops the hip out of alignment and makes the transition to shomen less smooth. 4. Relaxing the upper body completely before punching and throughout the punch. (obvious one but most people tend to tense up before the punch and then relax and then tense) 5. keeping both elbows close to the body (although actually letting them come out slightly results in a stronger punch on a target IMO. I have experimented with this myself and watched numerous senior instructors do the same when hitting a target. Look at some you tube videos of famous sensei punching a makiwara) 6. focusing on using the kenokou kotsu (shoulder blade), not the shoulder or arm muscles and allowing the shoulder to extend naturally at the end of the technique. (ie not stopping square). I believe it is the correct expansion and contraction of this area which results in a faster, more effective punch. 7. correct breathing This is in itself a topic on its own, and one of the biggest changes I have made to my karate after coming here. To cut a long story short, I try to make sure that I am breathing naturally and not inhibiting the exhaled air coming out by blocking it in my throat. If there is a loud sound that makes you sound like a steam engine, than you are not breathing naturally. Whilst it "sounds" strong it is not really stronger and just slows the technique and tires the practitioner. I have experimented with this numerous times. For a better explanation about what I mean please see here: www.youtube.com/watch?v=OET5JRXJ_wo&feature=youtu.be 8. Working on ankle flexibility daily (The secret to why Japanese people move smoother than westerners). Anyway this is how I do it. I am sure others may disagree with some of my points and would love to hear other opinions.
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Post by elmar on Jun 28, 2012 0:46:38 GMT
I would add in only 3 things: make sure that the rotation is around the joint of the lead hip, and not around the spine (symmetrically); IOW, do not pull the lead hip back to go from hanmi to shomen. Second: feel the weight transfer into the lead knee without letting the hips slide sideways onto that leg; your centerline at shomen should split the space between your legs, and not be offset to the lead leg side. Lastly, do not lean back away from the target, just to get the arm straight; rather hit with a bent elbow (assuming it is correctly rotated under the arm) and a well set upper body than a straight arm and a bent back upper body.
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Jun 28, 2012 9:42:53 GMT
Hi Hamid
Going back to points (4) and (6) on your list.
To help maintain relaxing the upper body before and throughout the punch I emphasis that the punch is initiated first with a sharp hip action IMMEDIATELY followed by the punch. By doing it this way it erradicates stiffness and tension in the arm, shoulders, shoulder blades etc simply because it is not the upper body that initiates the technique but the hips. This in addition to all that you have mentioned helps to perfect our reverse punch.
Try the following, working with a partner practice reverse punch and initiate the technique from the shoulder as a reaction to his/her faint. Now try the same but initiate from the hip almost like you are attempting to hit your opponent with your hip and not your fist followed IMMEDIATELY by the punch. Two very obvious differences occur, (1) you do not lean into the technique and more importantly (2) the whole action of hip and punch rotates throughout the hips whilst the body maintains being vertical.
A action is a bit like the trigger and hammer scenario of firing a gun, the hip being the trigger followed IMMEDIATELY by the fist being the hammer.
Best Regards Allan
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jun 28, 2012 10:20:19 GMT
@jim, could explain further about small circles? @ Malk, thanks for the mention of correct use of hips. That needed to be said.
Sorry I was called away suddenly. I suppose what I mean by small circles is that the punching hand is driven by a circular motion of the hips. Often students will pull back the hip too far resulting in exaggerated pushing and destabilising the stance. hip should be at a natural unforced Ai-hanmi then released to shomen but no further. There is also often a tendency to over-rotate the hips due to techniques being performed "out of distance". Over-rotation drives some of the force/energy backwards and again de-stabilises the stance. So, small circles.
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Post by hamhead on Jun 28, 2012 12:43:12 GMT
Thank you Elmar for your points, it took me a several rereads and standing up in the office trying to read and do at the same time before I understood what you meant (my thickness not your explanation).
I realized I do the first point naturally without thinking about it or ever focusing on it. Though I need clarification on what "without letting the hips slide sideways onto that leg" means.
Also, when you said "bent elbow" I assumed you meant the natural bend when the elbow is not hyperextended to straight but straight naturally or do you purposely bend it?
Thank you Allan for explaining my point more clearly. I should have explained it better myself.
And Malk thanks for explaining my point 3 in other terms i.e "small circles". It clicked what you meant was the same as what I meant this evening when I was training and for some reason the word "small circles " popped into my head from this morning when I read your original post. I then came and saw I was right, that is what you meant.
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Post by elmar on Jun 28, 2012 19:59:14 GMT
... I need clarification on what "without letting the hips slide sideways onto that leg" means. Stand looking into a mirror face on, so that you are punching into it while in front stance. Drop a plumb line from your navel with hips in shomen. Think of your feet as standing on the opposite corners of a rectangle aligned with the mirror. Bisect the edges parallel to the mirror with a line that will run the cartesian (not diagonal) "length" of your stance. The plumb bob should hit that line. Many beginners shift their hips to the side of the lead leg in front stance thus unloading the rear leg and offsetting their balance. I insist that the elbow point downwards as much as possible for the entire trajectory of the punch. So if the target is "too close", you do a vertical punch with the elbow pointing downwards. Even a full seiken has the elbow downwards (takes a bit of stretching to get there). The elbow never goes "sidewards" in a thrust. If it is bent, it is because that is where it wants to be; not hyper-extended.
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Post by hamhead on Jun 30, 2012 1:07:50 GMT
Thank you Elmar for that "scientific" explanation but generally I do not carry a plumb line to training nor do I own one or know anyone who does, especially for karate. I will just go by visual confirmation and correcting my and my students hips when I see them misaligned. So the natural bend of the elbow at the end of the punch and keeping the elbows close to the body or even touching the sides through out, then. I have a lot of respect for you Dr. Schmeisser, and I don't mean to be rude , but do you have any laymen students and can they actually understand you? (Or are you teaching in the physics department of a university?) To be honest, even though I personally am from a scientific background with a BSc (hons) and MSc. I need to re-read your post several times before I kind of get it. Even back then on KU . Many years ago I tried to read your book "Advanced Applied Physics" sorry, "Advanced Karate do" :)several times but the amount of effort it took was too much for me, and so I gave up and could not gain any of your wisdom. It would be great if you could articulate your knowledge and experience in a easier format that "most people" can easily understand. For you it is probably dumbing down, but for most people it is communicating normally. I know it probably makes karate "seem" more scientific and more advanced than it actually is by using scientific terms, fancy words and grammar structure reserved for journal submissions, but basically the majority of people running round in white pajamas doing this hobby, go by feel and visual clues. Terms related to those will have more impact and achieve greater understanding.
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Post by ruestir on Jun 30, 2012 2:06:40 GMT
Thank you Elmar for that "scientific" explanation but generally I do not carry a plumb line to training nor do I own one or know anyone who does, especially for karate. I will just go by visual confirmation and correcting my and my students hips when I see them misaligned. A piece of string with some kind of small weight would do. Just tie a nut to the end of a 3 foot string. I have been training with Elmar for nine years and have not really ever had any problem understanding his points. I'm no scientist by any stretch of the imagination. By the way, this is not just how he writes, he speaks in the same way. What you're reading here is conversational by his standards.
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Post by kensei on Jun 30, 2012 2:27:47 GMT
Practice...and if that does not work...practice some more! ;D
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Post by hamhead on Jun 30, 2012 2:57:05 GMT
I guess its easier to articulate in person when showing it as well rather than "on paper" so to speak.
BTW:
Do you mean that the elbow is pointing perfectly downward (perpendicular to the floor)? This is physically impossible for me as my forearms do not have the flexibility to perform a correct shotokan seiken (straight) rather than a shukokai style (angled) fist. Also, forcing the elbow down and twisting the forearm engages the deltoid muscles of the shoulders and the lattisimus dorsi (lats) muscles. This adds tension to precisely the muscles you want to be relaxing, no?
I don't know if I'm an anatomical freak but the natural bend in my elbows when my arm is extended out is not directly perpendicular to the floor(six o'clock) but more like between 4 and 5 o'clock)
Now you know that is the worst kind of advice (often spouted by those who can't be arsed to teach or just don't know how to teach it). (I know you said it in jest James so that comment isn't aimed at you in any way.)
Practice a technique wrongly, and repetitively and you will have a "perfectly wrong technique" (which will be almost impossible to rectify)
I believe it was Nishiyama sensei who said "only perfect practice makes perfect".
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Post by kensei on Jun 30, 2012 3:14:52 GMT
Now you know that is the worst kind of advice (often spouted by those who can't be arsed to teach or just don't know how to teach it). (I know you said it in jest James so that comment isn't aimed at you in any way.) Practice a technique wrongly, and repetitively and you will have a "perfectly wrong technique" (which will be almost impossible to rectify) I believe it was Nishiyama sensei who said " only perfect practice makes perfect". I totally said it in gest, now having cleared that out of the way, I personally find it hard to read a post and say "A HA, Thats how you do it"....personally I like to see it! My suggestions for those like me...watch some Youtube of Yahara working on Gyaku zuki and Osaka Sensei. they seem to have fantastic form. For me the most important things are the grounding (feet) and the hips...to many people throw their arm and dont use their hips...Gyaku Hanmi is so important for power for me! Now having said that might I also add that I have seen a handful of different "ways" to do the Gyaku zuki and each seems interesting and powerful....I found the one I like best training with Dingman Sensei and Yaguchi Sensei. The hips had it for me!
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Post by malk103 on Jun 30, 2012 9:17:25 GMT
Excellent tips all round and I like the perfect statement!
One question I have, could the technique be slightly different for Karateka of different size, build or weight if they could deliver a more powerful punch? What I mean is if someone was a different build or muscle size then could they slightly adjust their form to acheive the same punching power as someone with "perfect" form.
Similar to changing the applications of Kata to match the defenders physical build.
Or should they try to acheive perfect form and train their body to match the technique, even if it meant getting less power.
Obviously I am basing this question with the practical application in mind.
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jun 30, 2012 9:34:37 GMT
Lets not place form over function. In boxing terms gyaku-tsuki is a straight right. If all the elements come together you will have generated power. To achieve that there needs to be correct alignment of all the joints and rotation around the centre of gravity and delivery of mass behind the punch with velocity. A "perfect punch" is only perfect when you ascertain what it is for. If it is perfection of form then carry on training for perfect form ( appearance ). If "perfection" is knocking out the other guy, then form is only relevant in how it aids achieving the knockout. Is basic gyaku-tsuki the best method ( delivery system ) for this? Maybe, for a given value of "best".
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Post by elmar on Jun 30, 2012 11:39:53 GMT
Do you mean that the elbow is pointing perfectly downward (perpendicular to the floor)? This is physically impossible for me as my forearms do not have the flexibility to perform a correct shotokan seiken (straight) rather than a shukokai style (angled) fist. Also, forcing the elbow down and twisting the forearm engages the deltoid muscles of the shoulders and the lattisimus dorsi (lats) muscles. This adds tension to precisely the muscles you want to be relaxing, no? Of course the elbow will not be "perfect"; usually it ends up at about 45 degrees at the full extension of a seiken. And I don't see the deltoid engaging; only the lat, which you want to prevent overextending teh shoulder and decoupling the punch from the body. But I preferentially accept the angled fist over the elbow pointing sidewards, too The true test is against a heavy bag, of course. Straight punches will end up "shukokai" style more than "shotokan" style, I think, simply because your fist is stopped by the bag at about 60 - 75% extension.
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Post by kensei on Jun 30, 2012 12:29:06 GMT
Interesting thought from Jim...does perfect form equate perfect function or not? Having been taught that the better your form the better the functionality of a technique is and the better you train the more the "natural" response will be functionally....I am interested on thoughts....can a "not so pefect" technique that is lacking in key "form" components be just as functional or more so than one that has perfect form?
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Post by elmar on Jun 30, 2012 17:19:31 GMT
Function is defined by effects. If the opponent falls down then you have sufficient form for function. Is it "perfect" - of course not. but if it works, it's "not too bad." Shotokan karate is not just about effects, it is also about striving for perfection in form. The problem lies when the form itself has wandered away from bag work too far, so that making the keiko-gi "snap" becomes more important than creating actual power into a target.
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jun 30, 2012 19:10:02 GMT
Ah but for many out there, appearance is everything! From the snap of the gi to junior black belts whose obi are almost white through "wear". Expensive gi, heavily laden trophy cabinets etc. Striving for perfection is an honourable undertaking and much to be encouraged, however, if in that striving for perfect form we exaggerate stances and insert pregnant pauses in kata performance or make triumphant gestures or elongated ki-ai to draw attention to our dazzling technique, then we have lost our way and need reminding that ultimately if you cannot use your karate for its original intent, all we are doing is moving with style!
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Post by hamhead on Jul 1, 2012 0:37:32 GMT
And that "style" requires a nice expensive Japanese dogi (preferably tailored for the perfect fit). And those Junior black belts need to be taught that the current trend nowadays is having a nice immaculate black belt for style, preferably replaced after each grading. All this and much more, available at the tip of your fingertips, and if you act now, we'll even throw in my "secret guide to killer gyakuzuki" Just go to www.kuroobiya.com Thank you Elmar for the clarification. I use a Body Opponent Bag instead of a heavy bag and don't see the same phenomenon as the bag is much harder and doesn't sink in on impact. But then again when I am whacking the bag I tend to go more for maximizing speed, power and impact over holding "perfect" form .
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Post by th0mas on Jul 2, 2012 7:29:06 GMT
Lets not place form over function. In boxing terms gyaku-tsuki is a straight right. If all the elements come together you will have generated power. To achieve that there needs to be correct alignment of all the joints and rotation around the centre of gravity and delivery of mass behind the punch with velocity. A "perfect punch" is only perfect when you ascertain what it is for. If it is perfection of form then carry on training for perfect form ( appearance ). If "perfection" is knocking out the other guy, then form is only relevant in how it aids achieving the knockout. Is basic gyaku-tsuki the best method ( delivery system ) for this? Maybe, for a given value of "best". Here Here! I think understanding the fundamentals and being able to perform them physically is extremely important... the fun begins when you realise you can apply them in ways that don't look like a reverse punch to the uninitiated...
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Post by makoto on Jul 2, 2012 15:21:16 GMT
If your idea of a perfect punch is for form, then this thread does not apply to you. I am asking how to make the most effective reverse punch with the minimal amount of effort. Also, I am asking for if anyone has that one special tweek that makes their punch better than others, and if so, could they share. For example, I concentrate on my hikite side, not the outgoing side when doing a punch. Because, to me, having a strong solid base is important when making contact with a target. I will also say that having chest full of air or tension is useless when punching. Breathing from the stomach and relaxing the upper body is important.
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Post by th0mas on Jul 2, 2012 19:07:59 GMT
Ok john,
I like to roll my shoulder into the reverse punch... now clearly I am not punching with a straight arm. The aim is to apply the power generated by a traditional reverse punch in an unusual way, by hooking it over someones guard and rolling it down.
All the normal mechanics apply - the hip leads - I pivot on the front hip "close the door" - but I then raise the elbow to strike over a cover/guard and then roll the shoulder to allow the arm to follow the hip motion into my opponents jaw...
it requires a slight change in timing to get it to work well.
I hope that was the type of thing you were asking for?
Cheers
Tom
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Post by hamhead on Jul 3, 2012 4:47:39 GMT
I slip on a skin colored knuckle duster just prior to executing the punch, works great! Sorry
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Post by th0mas on Jul 3, 2012 9:21:38 GMT
Lol.. :-)
What works for me is to get my opponent to stand or preferable hang very still from a chain. It helps if he has no limbs too..
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Post by Gerry Boyce on Jul 6, 2012 13:29:24 GMT
For me, when striking the heavy bag using the reverse punch (or any technique), the most important point is to relax as completely as possible, while maintaining my stance & posture then explode into the punch from the hips, whip-like through the shoulders, down the arm into the fist tensing from the core at impact. One method I use is to "love tap" the bag with a relaxed fist only penetrating a fraction of an inch so I can stay relaxed through impact as well.
Another method I work on is to actually slightly thrust my body into the punch, so while twisting the hips into the punch I thrust forward maybe an inch or so to add momentum.
Hope this helps!
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Post by daveb on Jan 3, 2013 0:48:43 GMT
A short (natural) stance.
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Post by kensei on Jan 3, 2013 13:10:55 GMT
My idea when punching is to put my hip through the target....recently however a senior instructor has said....out loud mind you…that the hips should never go past square. They need to stay back apparently….which is not the way I do it and not the way I will do it. What do you guys think?
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