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Post by tomobrien on Jul 25, 2012 1:56:00 GMT
Found this on FB, put up by BB mag -
Agree or Disagree? Karate-do strengthens spirit and teaches some remarkable self-defense skills, but it isn’t even close to a complete self-defense curriculum. —Bruce D. Clayton, author of Shotokan's Secret
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Jul 25, 2012 11:01:35 GMT
Hello Tom
The quote is in Chapter 11 of Bruce D Clayton's book on page 252, on page 253 he makes the observation that 99% of students quit since we offer them something and fail to deliver, ie self defence. The possible reason for this high drop out that he mentions may be because the prospective student does not understand or appreciate what karate is.
In all of my 46 years of training "self defence" as never been hightlighted as a pre-requistion of learning karate whether it is "do" or "jutsu" that is followed. Putting it simply, learning karate is once you have the fundamentals what you want it to be.
One statement he makes is "It is time that we delivered on that promise"...what promise? I agree with him, yes it can be both but Traditional Karate does not need to come out of the Shuri reception hall and into the 21st century. For me I signed up for "Tradition Karate" and that is what I received/have. I for one do not feel short changed in the least.
If anyone wishes to learn "self defence" go and do the short breakaway course (individual) or the extended control and restraint course (minimum 3 person team) or ultimately investigate the many other various self defence course's on offer.
Which ever you choose always remember that the best form of self defence is not being there in the first place.
Best Regards Allan
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jul 25, 2012 11:25:21 GMT
I think we have covered this elsewhere and the arguments will be the same. Self-defense relies on some factors that cannot be "given" to a student, like attitude, spirit etc. We can try to engender these attributes but if it is not latent, we cannot give it. Also the point is not whether karate is a complete system, but on the application of that system. A pragmatic approach to a combative system will leave out sport karate completely but for me that would remove part of the enjoyment , as would the removal of techniques practised more for aesthetics than practicality. I knows individuals who have never practised a martial art but whom I know would be a handful in any fight. They carry no specific skill sets, just attitude and toughness. " Its not the dog in the fight , it is the fight in the dog!"
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Post by malk103 on Jul 26, 2012 12:32:00 GMT
It helps to strengthen spirit and can teach SD skills.
As said it's a 2 way thing, you can encourage someone to enhance their training but you also need them to take an active role in their own progression, taking little Jonnie to Karate for an hour a week will not turn him into a zen like perfectionist who can defeat 10 attackers.
The standard 3K club will only teach you how to be good at basics, from the handful of clubs that I have seen or trained with then a couple will produce BB's who are no better at combat than a dance student. Other clubs include SD like mine but it's whatever techniques we've learnt.
As I discover more about Shotokan and Karate then I would say that all of the SD techniques exist, they just need to be introduced into the syllabus. How many senior Kyu grades have absolutely no idea what is meant in the Kata except for the most obvious basic applications - that's great if you are attacked with 1 basic move at arms length and they will stay still while you apply your response.
If you do learn a SD course then will you remember everything, or even some of it, especially in the heat of the moment when you need it. Is it better to apply a few techniques to get the principles correct?
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Post by elmar on Jul 27, 2012 0:06:35 GMT
You get what you train. I agree that unarmed SD techniques do exist in the kata, and they reveal themselves if you have enough grounding in the kihon not only of punching and kicking but also of grappling, throwing and locking. Nowadays, you usually have to go outside the karate dojo (to judo and aikido) to get those kihon. but if you want to train a martial ART, then how you define your art is what you will get. There is no "promise" from the art itself - promises are made and fulfilled or broken by people.
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Post by tomobrien on Jul 27, 2012 2:14:13 GMT
I like what Allen said but we train for both the art & for the SD. We train in shotokan, goju, judo, TKD, boxing, ju-jitsu, weapons, mma, etc. etc. I love basai dai but I love defense against bats too. I think it can all be mixed together & be effective in any arena. Besides it's more fun ;D
Thanks, Tom
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Post by kensei on Jul 27, 2012 21:03:09 GMT
I think, from my not so limited experience trying not to get beat up working the doors that the most important things to know about SD is what to look for an how to react to it.
It almost does not matter what art you practice, as long as you are smart enough to use parts of it to keep your Bacon in tact then you are ahead of the game.
I think each style has its built in strengths and weaknesses when dealing with SD and thats why you have a focus style for training and then cross train around to fill the gaps.
For instance,I think Karate has the versitility of stand up techniques including some grappling while standing and a good and smart trained fighter will be able to defend himself against other strikers, but what if we get put on our Arse?
I need to be able to get up or take on a fighter who is a great wrestler or Judo guy...I started cross training in BJJ to do that, get up so my strong point of stand up fighting can be worked. But I also see that BJJ fighters who try and use it as their core training have a BIG hole in training...what if the attacker is not alone?
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Post by fujicolt on Jul 31, 2012 15:31:14 GMT
I would say:
If Karate is taught as it is in most Dojo - then it is indeed an incomplete SD system that focuses on unrealistic Grading reguirements and Sport Karate. However, IF studied fully it is a very good SD system indeed - I know I have had to use it for real far more often that 99 per cent of Karateka
But we do Lack groundwork and we can be limited in grappling and throwing skills.
If asked what is the best system to follow I would suggest -THE COMPLETE SHOTOKAN ARSENAL OF TECHNIQUES, STRATEGIES, TACTICS ETC! A rarely seen thing!
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Post by kensei on Aug 1, 2012 11:55:10 GMT
If asked what is the best system to follow I would suggest -THE COMPLETE SHOTOKAN ARSENAL OF TECHNIQUES, STRATEGIES, TACTICS ETC! A rarely seen thing! its sad that some people, myself included, travel out side of Shotokan to get a better look at a well ballanced system. IN the modern age to many people see the mix of Muay Thai and BJJ as perfect for SD but forget its all sport. I say a good mix of shotokan and grappling is a fantastic mix, and if you follow a complete curriculum of Shotokan their is a lot of grappling/counter grappling. But its just sad that we focus so much on sport in our art! (benig general here lads)
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Post by jimlukelkc on Aug 1, 2012 18:52:54 GMT
Unfortunately it is often only when we go outside of Shotokan that we realise Shotokan contains all the the techniques we have learned elsewhere but not been taught. My old instructor had us doing randori back in the 80`s. Throws, arm locks, chokes and strangles where a part of dan grade syllabus and we were required to escape from disadvantaged positions. This is something that has been largely lost.
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Post by kensei on Aug 3, 2012 12:30:07 GMT
Could not agree more. The more I trained in Judo the more I saw in our Kata that could be throws. I also once thought I would use Judo on my Karate intstructor to see what would happen...I was 16 and it seems like a life time ago...he beat the pulp out of me and countered every throw after he let me sink them in for the final twist to throw.
I am "playing" with modern BJJ right now and I see a tone of weaker points in both Karate training and BJ training and both sides seem to be blind to the fact that cross training in real stand up fighting and ground work is a benefit and not a draw back. In fact I have seen BJJ instructors say that training in anything more than a months worth of boxing is a waste of time.....and I have seen Karate guys say rolling on the ground will get you killed.....
They are both wrong. First off the BJJ guys have the WORST striking I have ever seen...even those that do Muay Thai...no idea why but you have to be a full time MMA kind of guy to get good striking as a BJJ student..and even then they kind of guess at when to throw things, unless again they are VERY high end. And Karate guys forget that if they are taken down they need to learn to get back up to use Karate!
its a benefit to learn both and while my 72 year old Karate instructor will never say BJJ is any good because of his bias, the BJJ guys I have rolled with have all seen that a sold striking back ground can be a benefit especially beyond the scope of sports liek Muay Thai training.
I used to think cross training weakened your Karate, now I see the benefits, but I still think students should learn Karate to about green or purple before they begin to dabble a bit and black before they change gears to study another style completely.
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