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Post by malk103 on Sept 26, 2012 8:41:08 GMT
What's the rules - or your rules - on young Black Belts?
I have read that some orgs require them to go back a grade upon reaching 16 or 18, as some start young is there a limit to what grade/rank they can acheive, as in theory they can get to Shodan mid teens and could be eligible for Nidan.
My son passed his Shodan and is nearly 14 so if he gets Nidan would he then have to fall back to Shodan?
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Post by Bob Davis on Sept 26, 2012 12:01:05 GMT
Hi Mal, Our rule is that your grade is your grade irrespective of age, there is no step back at 16 or 18. My son graded to Shodan at 15 and Nidan at 17, there was never any suggestion that this wasn't a "real" grade. We take kids from the age of 6 but they are artificially held back by the use of "intermediate" grades between the coloured belts so their time to potential blackbelt is significantly longer (whether this is a cunning plan, a motivational tool or just a fund raiser is open to debate however  ). It does mean that in theory we could have eligability for Shodan at 12 but I've only ever seen this happen once during my time. I do know that other groups do it differently though. |
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Post by malk103 on Sept 26, 2012 13:19:12 GMT
Yep, my son certainly earned his grade and has moved onto advanced training and learning new Kata. I'm not a fan of the extra belts as when you look at the long term costs the parents are paying out £20/30 odd per grade and it may be seen as a delaying or fund raising tactic.
A lot of kids don't stick at it that long, the few that do get to Purple/Brown belt level but can be held back from grading unless they have achieved a certain standard, this either motivates them to do better or they give up.
I've seen a Shodan grading where the child was quite young so not sure if there is a general lower age limit either?
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Post by kensei on Sept 26, 2012 13:27:08 GMT
I do have issues with "young black belts" in general. personally I dont see it as a possitive thing in many cases...by young I mean 9-12 years old.
If you started Karate, as I did, at 6ish, you could be "ready" for black belt testing by 9-10 years old. Rubbish, show me a 10 year old that can "Pass" the testing for Dan rankings and be equal to a 20-40 year old Shodan!
Wait, lets keep going here, according to my organizations standards...The JKA....you can grade for Nidan 1-2 years after Shodan....and Sandan after 2-3 years as Nidan...and Yondan after 3-4 years after Sandan...so doing the math and using the max time....
we have a kid starting Karate at 6.....
earning shodan at 9..........
earning Nidan by 12.........
Sandan at 15.........
Yondan at 18.......
Godan at 22 .........
Rokudan at 28.........
and by the time they are 42 they are a 8th Dan......anyone see issues with this progression?
Personally I prefer the way some groups say "NO black belt before 17....No Nidans before 20 and no sandans before 25!
Just my thinking however.
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Post by Bob Davis on Sept 26, 2012 15:06:58 GMT
Just curious, given that you started at 6 and are still here. Baring in mind that my Saturday morning dojo is predominantly 6-9 year olds I've personally always felt that we start them far too young for "proper" karate. Having been through it what is your point of view on this? As a side issue (and not trying to stir things up at all ) Is that part of the testing requirement? If so, which 20-40 year old Shodan? The 20 Year old 6'3" 200lb male Shodan whose been in training for 14 years or the 40 year old 4'11" 98lb female Shodan with 4 years of training? who only took it up as something to do now the kids are out of the way (Ducking for cover BUT just trying to make a point). I have a lad in my Saturday class who's just turned 12 but is already bigger and stronger than many adult karate-ka I know and could give (or take) more of a whack. Ok, he's only purple belt at present but he's only been with me 2 years, if he'd started early enough to acquire the skill he'd certainly have the physicality. |
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Post by malk103 on Sept 26, 2012 15:21:46 GMT
Thinking about it more then i have no problems with teens getting Shodan as in theory it is to mark that they have mastered the basics and can now continue training - or start "proper" training.
Maybe a lower limit on Dan grades, maybe Nidan at 18 or 20? I was happy to see my boy grade as the Black Belt is the first major aim of anyone training, but maybe Nidan and above should be restricted. Then again, if they can demonstrate everything required for Nidan the same as an adult then why not?
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Post by Bob Davis on Sept 26, 2012 15:42:54 GMT
As you say, if they can demonstrate the level why not? Likewise, if someone has 35 years of continuous training and has passed all the tests thrown at them then why not 8th Dan at 42? That's what the rules say, (according to the JKA it seems ) Why is their 35 years of training less valid than a 72 year old with the same time in training (other than the fact that we don't seem to mind seniors older than us but the young ones p*ss us off ) |
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Post by Rob S on Sept 26, 2012 19:18:01 GMT
I tough that in JKA you reverted to Shodan at 16, regardless of grade. i.e. You were entered into the 'senior register' at 16. That implies that any grade issued earlier is NOT recognised as a 'senior' grade.
In my association a person can wear a black belt as a junior, but cannot be certified as Shodan until they reach 16 years of age.
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Post by nathanso on Sept 27, 2012 4:49:58 GMT
If I ran my own club, I would not teach children younger than 10 or 12. I think that you have to modify things too much, and I have no interest in running kiddie classes. That said, my club does have a large kids' program, and a lot of the kids are pretty serious.
I see no reason why young kids should not be allowed to test for black belt. If you think they deserve to be taught, then I think that they deserve to be tested, or at least, told before they start that they won't be allowed to test for certain ranks until they reach a certain age. Of course, if rank was based on absolute physical skill, instructors in their 60's and 70's would not be promoted beyond their current ranks and in fact would be tested periodically to determine when they have declined enough to lose a dan level or two.
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Post by kensei on Sept 27, 2012 12:29:26 GMT
Just curious, given that you started at 6 and are still here. Baring in mind that my Saturday morning dojo is predominantly 6-9 year olds I've personally always felt that we start them far too young for "proper" karate. Having been through it what is your point of view on this? I will be completely frank. My instructors busted their butts to not "Dumb down or soften" the training....but in the end....I dont think I started really learning "Karate" till I was in my teens. Now keep in mind I did Judo around the same time as well and even earned a Shodan at 19. I have to say that most of what we teach to kids in "kids classes" for 5-9 year olds is just to entertain and keep them interested till they can really learn some stuff...If you were to put a kid through the paces our adult classes go through they would not last. It was a bit of a day care situation and one I wanted to be in. so dont get me wrong, I was not dumped off at Karate and left to fend in a class, I asked to train, but did not really know what Karate was till I was about 12-14. it serves its purpose, but lets not kid ourselves, no 9-10 year old is going to be able to fend off a grown man using just the skills they learn in class...on the street or in the Dojo..... thats my honest assesment of my situation...not everyones...but mine. As a side issue (and not trying to stir things up at all ) Is that part of the testing requirement? If so, which 20-40 year old Shodan? The 20 Year old 6'3" 200lb male Shodan whose been in training for 14 years or the 40 year old 4'11" 98lb female Shodan with 4 years of training? who only took it up as something to do now the kids are out of the way (Ducking for cover BUT just trying to make a point). During Kumite the black belt candidate must look like they can defend themselves against agressors. Not destroy the other guy, but defend themselves and earn a few "points" along the way. I guess its all perspective. If you are looking for a point sparring sporty person that can jump around and throw "points" at an opponent then your standards for Kumite are going to be VERY different than mine. I am looking for the ability to defend in bad situations to some the extent that they have a fighting chance, they must face other black belts and not wilt, they have to raise to the occasion and be able to focus on taking out an agressor or defending well depending on the given situation. I think some of todays standards focus on pretty dance moves and then partners ballet! I learned some valuable lessons early on and also on my Sandan testing. I got poked in the eye pretty bad and only had one eye that really worked. the testing instructor said "so what, that could happen on the streets". it took me a day or so to digest that and the next few days in the dojo I put myself in bad spots to see how I could fight out of them or just defend long enough to find an opening to escape or turn the tables. Karate aint pretty, or shouldnt be, and if you are some brown belt testing for Shodan and cant defend yourself then maybe you should stay a brown belt a while longer!....and further how the hell did you get a brown belt! I have a lad in my Saturday class who's just turned 12 but is already bigger and stronger than many adult karate-ka I know and could give (or take) more of a whack. Ok, he's only purple belt at present but he's only been with me 2 years, if he'd started early enough to acquire the skill he'd certainly have the physicality. The problem is that we are generalizing here....not all 12 year olds are build like line backers, and not all 30 year olds can defend themselves....so do we water down standards? and if so for who? Not all black belts will be able to beat EVERYONE up or make themselves supermen in Kumite, their will always be a better fighter! But do the spirit and instincts kick in at the right time to make them defend themsevles enough to escape or at worst hold out for help. I am not saying we need to keep all 12 year olds back, nor am I saying that if you trained for 20 years you should be at "Blank" Rank! I am saying that different people progress at different times, but its silly to give a 9 year old a black belt when other black belts will litteraly mop the floor with them!....Litterally. A black belt SHOULD come with some pride, and to be frank, when I see 9 year old wearing Black belts and find out they are gettnig ready to grade for Nidan...I look at my black belt and think...Nice peice of cotton! I will never look at a kid or teen and say "they are Shodan" and higher ranking than the adults in my class. the fact is that they simply dont have the physicality or emotional development to be Yudansha! they are basically shodan-ho and thats as far as I would EVER go with them. |
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Post by kensei on Sept 27, 2012 12:37:27 GMT
Okay, here is my take on the JKA testing and why kids shouldnt be allowed to test......
Shodan....
Kid can do Kihon very well....probably better than us old farts, but the body is still growing and will be changing before they reach late teens, so one year they have great flexibility and coordination....one growth spirt later and they are two left feet and tight as a banjo!
Kata.....same thing as Kihon really, one year they can do the Katas and look great....but the next horror show! Also, they dont get the Katas. they dont understand them...no life experiences and they are basically doing pretty dancing.
Kumite......Jiyu ippon....okay, they may do okay against other kids, but throw a adult Nidan in and watch them melt under pressure. If we are to treat them like shodan candidates and not a 9 year old kid...well show me a 9-12 year old kid that can actually go toe to toe with a Nidan or even Shodan worth their rank! One out of 1000 maybe can defend and counter, but it will look lame!
Nidan...same issues with Kata and kihon...and Kumite is Jiyu kumite according to the JKA.
I do Jiyu kumite with my students and my instructors students at very slow speeds to start off with and by the time they are brown belt we speed up...but the reality is that we dont allow kids to go full force. they dont have the timing, distance or control to do this. I have seen more kids get hurt doing Free style than I care to mention....granted our clubs are pretty hard core and go hard during kumite.
I just dont think I could respect a nidan that was 13-15 years old the way I would a Nidan 20ish to 40! I would still look at them as emotionally developing kids....and the Dan ranks, to me, hold a bit more importance.
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Post by Bob Davis on Sept 27, 2012 14:19:30 GMT
Hi James, Thanks for the replies, despite my "stiring" I would say that we pretty much agree on everything. Most of my Saturday crew are mad keen and really want to be there BUT they have no idea what real karate is and how rough it can be (no reason they should at 6-9). I think it's a valuable activity and they get a lot out of it and I enjoy teching them (for the most part ) but a martial art it ain't. I've been thinking about this a lot lately and if it were down to me I wouldn't even consider starting them before the age of 13 but a lot of dojos only survive on the income from the kids (personally I don't care, my adult club loses money every week BUT I'm teaching what I want to teach). Problem is we do take kids and give them an expectation within the rules (our rules), if we don't like the outcome then we should change the rules but until we do...... I know my son graded to nidan at 17 but he is, shall we say, a little unusual in that way, he took a poorly controlled punch to the throat from a large adult Sandan during the kumite section that would have felled most adults and just kept coming back, he also took his shodan with one hand strapped and padded because he'd cracked it in pre grading training (I suspect he must take after his mother ). Whenever I have to face off against anyone he is the one that worries me the most  (there are a lot of others better than me but no one who'll challenge me like him). As you say it's hard to generalise as there are exceptions to any rule and that works both ways, not all adults really have the potential to be a blackbelt either (but a lot of them still make it). It would be foolish to expect every shodan candidate to dominate every fight, in fact (an old cliche, I know) I think how they handle losing is more important, what I like to watch for is that spark that says, especially in an overwhelming situation, "I am not going to give up" as it's that attitude that may one day get you out of a bad place. Totally agree. Again, totally agree but I've seen adults sucessfully grade who've made me think the same  I think my only issue is that if we are going to grade people at all it shouldn't be down to some artificial age limitation but entirely down to the individuals ability to pass ALL aspects of the test to a required standard, and if that is beyond kids (and some adults) then so be it. What I do object to is the "Well done! (in my best condecending voice) you can have a blackbelt or even be a nidan or sandan" but when the time comes it's not actually a "real" blackbelt so you can test now and see if you really are |
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Post by kensei on Sept 28, 2012 13:34:42 GMT
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Post by Bob Davis on Sept 28, 2012 14:15:29 GMT
What I'm saying (or trying to ) is that we shouldn't be giving kids blackbelts (and/or higher grades) then telling them if they re-test at 16 or 18 they can be a "real" blackbelt. My opinion is that if you give them the grade then it counts, if you don't want it to count then DON'T give them the grade in the first place (and don't have rules in place that allow it to happen). |
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Post by bczar on Sept 28, 2012 15:29:14 GMT
I do have issues with "young black belts" in general. personally I dont see it as a possitive thing in many cases...by young I mean 9-12 years old. If you started Karate, as I did, at 6ish, you could be "ready" for black belt testing by 9-10 years old. Rubbish, show me a 10 year old that can "Pass" the testing for Dan rankings and be equal to a 20-40 year old Shodan! Wait, lets keep going here, according to my organizations standards...The JKA....you can grade for Nidan 1-2 years after Shodan....and Sandan after 2-3 years as Nidan...and Yondan after 3-4 years after Sandan...so doing the math and using the max time.... we have a kid starting Karate at 6..... earning shodan at 9.......... earning Nidan by 12......... Sandan at 15......... Yondan at 18....... Godan at 22 ......... Rokudan at 28......... and by the time they are 42 they are a 8th Dan......anyone see issues with this progression? Personally I prefer the way some groups say "NO black belt before 17....No Nidans before 20 and no sandans before 25! Just my thinking however. Doesn't the JKA have age requirements on some of the Dan ranks? I think the Tio brothers in Canada for example had to wait until they were at least 35 to test for Godan. The scenario you present hardly ever happens anyway as "real life" usually factors in a some point. The time between gradings for most people usually far exceeds the recommended time. Finances, family, careers... Also taking a test is not a guarantee of a pass. |
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Post by kensei on Sept 28, 2012 21:12:39 GMT
What I'm saying (or trying to ) is that we shouldn't be giving kids blackbelts (and/or higher grades) then telling them if they re-test at 16 or 18 they can be a "real" blackbelt. My opinion is that if you give them the grade then it counts, if you don't want it to count then DON'T give them the grade in the first place (and don't have rules in place that allow it to happen). Ah, I get it now. I was not thinking about that....can not agreemore. but perhaps its also time to slow down the grading times and lengthen the between testing times. This would lead to the same outcome we are looking at...more mature black belts. |
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Post by kensei on Sept 28, 2012 21:14:18 GMT
Doesn't the JKA have age requirements on some of the Dan ranks? I think the Tio brothers in Canada for example had to wait until they were at least 35 to test for Godan. The scenario you present hardly ever happens anyway as "real life" usually factors in a some point. The time between gradings for most people usually far exceeds the recommended time. Finances, family, careers... Also taking a test is not a guarantee of a pass. I am not saying it would...but I am still looking at 13-14 year old Shodans and Nidans who are children and really not on the same level physically as most adult 3rd Kyus. |
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Post by Bob Davis on Sept 28, 2012 21:15:59 GMT
That's a whole different can of worms for me, spending so much time chasing the next grading syllabus that there isn't actually any time to teach them anything  (other than the grading dance) |
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Post by Rob S on Sept 28, 2012 22:44:56 GMT
That's a whole different can of worms for me, spending so much time chasing the next grading syllabus that there isn't actually any time to teach them anything (other than the grading dance) 'The grading dance' has become the interest of TOO MANY dojos today. Adults and children alike. Grades are no longer what they were. Let's be honest. Totally honest. Please ... let's be honest. A 5 dan today is like a 3 dan 25 years ago. There were few senior Westerners then, and those who were ... were legendary. No there are as many senior grades out there as juniors. Yudansha and Kodansha. An army of grades. Why? Associations need grades to retain the students, to retain the money! How do we stop this 'progress' if grades and standards honetsly worry us? Well that answer is easy. Associations and Dojos stop the grading dance!!! Let's look at one very well known Goju Ryu sensei (a man I have met back in 1976) and his history: Taken from www.gojuryu.net/articles.php?article_id=152If grades were not the subject of arbitrary testing, but handed out, in each association, only by the chief instructor, there may become a standard. Bring back the Menkyo Kaiden system! |
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Post by kensei on Sept 30, 2012 14:24:41 GMT
I dont agree, the Menkyo Kaiden system lead to its own issues. It lead to one-up-manship that was horrible. I am a Master...Oh, ya...I am a grand master...Well, I am a great Grand master...and so on!
Personally, I think that they need to realize that Rank is not as important as personal knowledge and charactor. I know lots of people with good knowledge and horrible charactor and some with lots of time in who learned very little.
The answer is to make Sensei's realize that a Nidan in one organization may be a rokudan in others, so....Rank...is relevent only in your own organization and only in a limited way.
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Post by Rob S on Sept 30, 2012 22:37:34 GMT
The answer is to make Sensei's realize that a Nidan in one organization may be a rokudan in others, so....Rank...is relevent only in your own organization and only in a limited way. I agree. But subjectivity is just that. And let's be totally honest the dollar speaks! I can't begin to list the people who have passed a grade just because 'big shots' want them in their associations. I can speak of one, where someone had ... ae you ready? ... in excess of 60,000, yes 60,000 members. They stated they would join if their senior grades were recognised. The pens could not write fast enough. So there we were. 27 certificates were issued (or thereabouts). The sad part .. or funny part .. only 27 people paid joining fees. So the rest of the 60,000 stayed in their own country! In their own association. Someone got had over. and that was in the 90's! |
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Post by tomobrien on Oct 3, 2012 2:12:50 GMT
We give 'junior' belts but you don't get the real thing until you can beat/hold your own with men/women. Iv'e seen exceptional 15 year olds do it, maybe twice.
Thanks,
Tom
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Post by Paul Bedard on Oct 3, 2012 3:16:20 GMT
Personally I don`t think that a Shodan should be given before age 12, a Nidan before age 16, or a Sandan before age 21. I think that a bit of maturity has to go along with physical ability. With this formula a Yondan can be 25 & honestly there are not that many 25 year olds mature enough for the responsibility to go with it.
Paul B
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Post by kensei on Oct 3, 2012 13:05:36 GMT
I agree, and again.....instructors need to think of it as who they want reprosenting them with black belts and at what levels. If you dont mind a young guy that has the maturity of a Young guy being your sixth dan rep then fine....but most instructors that grade people dont really know the guys they are grading and need to remember that the guy they just gave a sixth dan to....may be 25 years old....and still not mature enough to reprosent them.
But instructors who grade normally only see one thing...money...and what do they care if a guy in another country is 25 acting like a moron, but has skills like mad! Get the money, see if he can "kicky an punchy" and go home!
Age restrictions are good ideas, it means your sixth dan has some life experience and "should" be more mature than your average 20-25 year old!
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Post by Bob Davis on Oct 3, 2012 14:20:03 GMT
Or alternative to the idea of "with age comes wisdom" is the often demonstrated fact that young dickheads tend to just grow into old old dickheads! If you are going to grade on anything other than just physical karate skill then you need to KNOW the student. |
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Post by kensei on Oct 3, 2012 16:40:19 GMT
Or alternative to the idea of "with age comes wisdom" is the often demonstrated fact that young dickheads tend to just grow into old old dickheads! If you are going to grade on anything other than just physical karate skill then you need to KNOW the student. I agree, In BJJ you only grade your own personal students. I have seen some new clubs that do otherwise but the original idea was who do you put YOUR faith in that they wont be a dick head! I think alot of Karate clubs have become Black Belt Factories with people that sometimes have limited skills and knowledge with questionalbe charactor getting ahead simply because they pay the testing fee. I have even seen instructors basically fall asleep during grading for Dan levels and not EVER FAIL a student. its sad! |
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Post by middleton on Oct 4, 2012 2:23:23 GMT
Good evening, I have read the following discussion, and would like to offer my thoughts on this interesting topic. The issue that has been presented has a number of relevant factors. There is and will always be instructors, groups, or organizations that award Dan ranking, qualifications, or recognition more "freely" than others. There will also always be practitioners that are more then willing to accept these awards, and take measures that for myself are distasteful. In many ways even in a traditional and reputable organization there are political motives, and inconsistencies on established policies. We truly can only govern our own actions, and approach to training. In nearly 30 years of training I can say very honestly that I have seen many adults that were awarded Dan rank that were more questionable then young children. I personally do not feel that there should be an age restriction for Shodan. As has been identified yes there is a minimum age requirement in the JKA (And most organizations) for higher ranking - which I do agree with. The subject of what is the criteria for the various Dan ranking is something that is worthy of serious consideration. If your criteria for Shodan is based solely on the physical ability to defend oneself against an aggressive attacker then this would limit most young children and the elderly from advancing in rank. Interesting discussion. Kind regards, Scott Middleton www.traditionalkarateofbrandon.ca/ |
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Post by malk103 on Oct 4, 2012 9:15:42 GMT
I guess also it is important to know the reason why you train in Karate with regards to being graded, if it's just to be able to defend yourself then most of us would fail.
If it's an ability to perform all of the required technical K's with true fighting spirit then that would be relavent to more Karateka.
Shodan is in effect the end of the basic training so shouldn't really have an age limit, however after reading all of the above then I now tend to think that age limits should be applied to "nd Dan and above. I may impress on my son that he should maybe wait a little longer before grading to Nidan.
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Post by kensei on Oct 4, 2012 12:18:19 GMT
The other factor I look at is the RUSH to the top. It would seem to me that those that push hard to grade all the time have other reasons to grade than just enjoyment of the practice of Karate. Politics and power tend to be more at the source for rankings than love of Karate.
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Post by malk103 on Oct 4, 2012 12:45:28 GMT
Yep, anyone who can't wait to tell you what Dan grade they are, maybe shouldn't be....
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). It does mean that in theory we could have eligability for Shodan at 12 but I've only ever seen this happen once during my time.
(there are a lot of others better than me but no one who'll challenge me like him). As you say it's hard to generalise as there are exceptions to any rule and that works both ways, not all adults really have the potential to be a blackbelt either (but a lot of them still make it).
(other than the grading dance)