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Post by malk103 on Oct 12, 2012 20:32:05 GMT
Excuse the dodgy explanation..... After the first 3 uchi, gyaku zuki techniques, a few more then you turn with the right hand up with palm up and the left hand lower and palm down, then you turn the right hand palm down. What position are the fingers in, are they all straight as in Shuto or is the first finger straight and the others slightly bent at the first knuckle? In 2 books I have seen conflicting images but they aren't clear, in Master Funakoshi's book Karate-Do Kyohan they are described as fingers bent so I am tempted to agree with this.
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Post by elmar on Oct 12, 2012 20:35:17 GMT
It matters how? The difference is just idiom, imho. In aikido, one tries not to use the index finger in grabs but instead emphasize the small fingers, so this is the teaching form of a grab. In a "real" grab, you use what you got.
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Post by nathanso on Oct 16, 2012 6:21:05 GMT
The secret for this technique is that you must invite your chief instructor for an expensive seminar so he can show you the correct way. You will of course need to invite him to come again in another year or two so he can teach how it has now been changed. Repeat this sequence as often as necessary until the underlying lesson is learned.
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Post by malk103 on Oct 16, 2012 8:28:18 GMT
Is there a cheaper way..... So i'm assuming the applications for these moves are twisting grabbing - anyone have anything more specific for applications?
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Post by jimlukelkc on Oct 16, 2012 10:27:24 GMT
All applications for kake-uke apply here, clearing limbs, trapping , grabbing, pulling, inserting stance.
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Post by kensei on Oct 16, 2012 12:28:11 GMT
I would think Application before settling on what the move is. What I mean by this, similar to what many have already pointed out, is that the technique is a clearing the limbs and grabbing/trap'n'grab kind of move, so for me I do a tsukami uke or tiger mouth grab with this movement, some use more a shuto and "think" of the application, while others use more of a pressing palm or bear paw looking thingy.
Does it matter how you present it, well to some it does as we want to see what your application is while doing the kata or at least that you "get it" and a knife hand block does not mean you get it in my books, but if you can explain that if used in a real situation you would grab...I may let it go.
Aikidos grappling is "unique" from what I recal and not something I would inject into my Karate to be frank. Much of my experience with Aikido was about 10% useable and 90% leave it at the club with those that like to be thrown around.
My view is to take more of a wrestling/judo/jitsu kind of grappling view and think of this as a chance to grip their collar or go for the throat! think of it as that and you get the tiger mouth grab!
Again, only my two cents worth!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2012 15:33:03 GMT
I can see blocking, limb clearing, striking and pulling. Defending against single or double arms grabs to you.
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Post by elmar on Oct 16, 2012 19:56:19 GMT
... Much of my experience with Aikido was about 10% useable and 90% leave it at the club with those that like to be thrown around. ! Well, really - this proves "YMMV" for certain With the Nishio-style Aikido that I trained in, it was biased the other way - some stuff that was only (and obviously) for training body feeling and control, but large amounts of good stuff that would work. The main difference was that the instructors would hit you with their free hand if you didn't move (instead of attaching themselves to you and standing there like a statue while you think about how to escape and then engineer a throw, as I have seen elsewhere).
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Post by kensei on Oct 16, 2012 20:07:43 GMT
The main difference was that the instructors would hit you with their free hand if you didn't move (instead of attaching themselves to you and standing there like a statue while you think about how to escape and then engineer a throw, as I have seen elsewhere). Yah, unfortunatly the two clubs I tried out and trained at were very much "Attack with knife hand CHOP to head in downward swing.......wait". It was crap and I found that most of my interactions were like that..."punch like robot...wait" kind of stuff. I thought it was just me being a white belt or something but the black belts were like this too. I went to Aikido after Judo and found most instructors were far more interested in pretty displays of grace and movement than doing what worked. No I have to admit that the two schools I went to were not related, and while the only real Aikido in town...are probably similar in approach.I actually had a instructor get mad at me because I would not "flow with him" and let him throw me!
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Post by elmar on Oct 17, 2012 20:16:38 GMT
..."punch like robot...wait" kind of stuff. I thought it was just me being a white belt or something but the black belts were like this too. To be fair many aikido dojo are full of beginners who are working with other beginners, and neither knows what they are doing, attacking or defending. So you get this kind of poor stuff. And getting a black belt just means that you have shodan in that particular artificial context, not any larger context. Context needed here - if the instructor was trying to teach something, and you were preventing him showing in a way that the other beginners could understand, then I could see it. Otherwise, it's the old complaint - you attacked me wrongly
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Post by kensei on Oct 17, 2012 23:58:34 GMT
Context needed here - if the instructor was trying to teach something, and you were preventing him showing in a way that the other beginners could understand, then I could see it. Otherwise, it's the old complaint - you attacked me wrongly context was this, Went to a seminar held by a 5thDan out of Toronto, he wanted to demonstrate a throw and he told us you could use it in a real attack, I was told to attack, he could not execute throw....tried second time...no dice...third time he started getting red in the face....Fourth Time and he was LIVID that he could not throw me....finally sixth time he blew up and told me "You are not flowing with me" to which I said "oh, sorry...so we have to get our attackers to flow with us" ....crickets for about a minute..then he said "well Yah!" like it was common sense to get a attacker to work with you on the move...I let him throw me...he was happy...I left the Dojo the next day and told the 3rd dan teacher that I only wanted to train in styles that I could use if I was attacked! thats pretty much the context. He wanted me to resist in such a way that I was flowing with him and letting him throw me....if you are scratching your head...so was I! I have seen Yoshinkan guys that were scary as hell...but it seems like with all martial arts the McDojo has a firm grip on Aikido in my area!
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Post by elmar on Oct 18, 2012 0:48:45 GMT
I have seen Yoshinkan guys that were scary as hell...but it seems like with all martial arts the McDojo has a firm grip on Aikido in my area! Oh indeed - and you have 2 types of McDojo in Aikido - the flowers and the brutes. The first sound like what you had - flow, man, flow! Lots of talk about Ki and non-aggression, universal harmony, etc. The second is basically bad jujitsu - lots of damaged joints in those places, and much infliction of pain just for pain's sake. Good aikido is something quite different imho, and when you experience it (especially when it is accompanied with a smack up the side of your head), lots of silliness falls away. ;D
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Post by kensei on Oct 18, 2012 13:18:49 GMT
Oh indeed - and you have 2 types of McDojo in Aikido - the flowers and the brutes. The first sound like what you had - flow, man, flow! Lots of talk about Ki and non-aggression, universal harmony, etc. The second is basically bad jujitsu - lots of damaged joints in those places, and much infliction of pain just for pain's sake. Good aikido is something quite different imho, and when you experience it (especially when it is accompanied with a smack up the side of your head), lots of silliness falls away. ;D Kind of like Karate! I completely agree that the clubs I went to were "Flow with the ki" and "Universal harmony energy will fill your arms and let you complete the redirection".......I came from a back ground that my instructor would tell you how he was going to hit you and when and you probably could not stop him if you tried, he was that good. Not I am going to throw you...but only if you let me! kind of BS!!!! Hey I Have tried things against people that did not work, but I never got upset at them, just kind of ticked that what I was trying was not working and sent myself back to train on it and get my stuff straight!
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Post by jimlukelkc on Oct 22, 2012 8:32:28 GMT
I agree, some dreadful Aikido out there. I was fortunate, having come from a background of Judo and jujitsu, I understood the difference between relaxed training and being compliant. I was also fortunate that my aikido sensei was reality focused and pragmatic. I have since learned to take out the stuff that is really only designed as a training drill and all the Ki energy bull and incorporate aikido into my training. It is not wasted if it works!
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Post by kensei on Oct 22, 2012 12:55:16 GMT
It is not wasted if it works! Could not agree more. I also had a Judo back ground and perhaps thats why I did not "play along". My instructor in Judo was an older gent and he tossed us around willing or unwilling and was pretty nuts and boldsy when he taught. You did not get the feeling that you had to comply to be throw, you just had to land right or it really hurt! The two clubs I went to in my town taught me less than I learned via books! Wrist locks and elbow locks were about it, the throws they did were unusable and the instructors a huge joke. My instructor in Karate knew more about real throws than they did!
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Post by jimlukelkc on Oct 25, 2012 16:02:42 GMT
On the back of this, we often talk about cross-training and using Judo techniques or Aikido etc. When we incorporate it into our karate, surely it becomes karate.? I have stopped making the distinction myself . It is only separate if it is taught as a stand alone thing as far as I am concerned and puts up another barrier to learning.
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Post by kensei on Oct 25, 2012 17:46:25 GMT
On the back of this, we often talk about cross-training and using Judo techniques or Aikido etc. When we incorporate it into our karate, surely it becomes karate.? I have stopped making the distinction myself . It is only separate if it is taught as a stand alone thing as far as I am concerned and puts up another barrier to learning. I agree, I see Judo and Karate as Components of fighting/defending yourself. Not as stand alone arts per see.
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