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Post by malk103 on Oct 28, 2012 22:39:04 GMT
Just wondering if others have trained in Kata and concentrated on halway positions? I have a few junior grades that are in my classes and they are a bit sloppy with Kata, also train with a couple of Brown belts who should be a lot sharper, in an attempt to help with their form I introduced Kata with halway steps. Things like pointing the hikite hand in the direction of the move and keeping knees bent during stepping punches etc.
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Post by nathanso on Oct 28, 2012 23:04:44 GMT
I think that it is a pretty common belief that breaking things down into its constituent parts, whether you are talking about kihon (lunge punch, front kick, etc.) or movements in a kata, is integral to developing precise movements and technical precision. An important caveat is that its important to be sure to finish by practicing it reassembled and that the students do not now add an extra "count" when actually doing it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2012 7:05:43 GMT
Have also tried helping beginers by breaking things down to halfway point. Some get it and benefit but others don't and just concentrate on the end point. Occasionally they suddenly get it a couple of grades later!
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Post by elmar on Oct 29, 2012 13:35:18 GMT
I prefer not thinking about positions, but instead thinking about trajectories. Kata are movements, not postures. Techniques are verbs, not nouns. Yes, there is a nice terminal posture to attain, and yes, the intermediate postures are part of learning how to get from one terminal posture to the next, but all that is really beside the point. In application of kata techniques to an opponent/partner, you will never attain the perfect end posture without hurting your partner (without massive compliance on their part). In RL, you won't either - the opponent's body will be in the way of the terminal position (hopefully). If the trajectory is right, then you are OK; if it isn't nothing will work, and imho you are training yourself wrong in every sense of the word.
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Post by malk103 on Oct 29, 2012 13:44:28 GMT
Come to think of it we've used halfway positions in Kihon for ever so it makes sense to try then in Kata. We went on to do the Kata a couple of times after normally and you could almost hear the thinking.
Good point Elmar, although I suppose there is the difference in just performing the Kata to look correct and performing the Kata with the correct intent. I expect they will improve as they go up the gradings but will keep in mind the idea of trajectory for later on.
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Post by kensei on Oct 29, 2012 16:58:14 GMT
I dont really agree 100% with Elmar on this one. At the begining it is a Possition by possition situation doing Kata. Most juniors need that idea in their head as they move or the kata starts to fall apart and look horrible. The movements are sloppy because they not only lack Kime but they also end up looking to run together with no timing and proper use of distance/idea of distance.
Kata should start off as a "Do a front stance and down block...stop...step in do oi zuki front stande....stop...." kind of training. Let them hold the movement for a second and fix it up.
Once you are an intermediate level you can start to flow more and get better timing but you should never abandon Kime for runing things together to find movement flow!
However, he is right that by the time you get to an advanced student level you need to starting thinking of flow and context in movement.
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Post by elmar on Oct 29, 2012 19:48:12 GMT
. ...The movements are sloppy because they not only lack Kime but they also end up looking to run together with no timing and proper use of distance/idea of distance. I am hearing tournament performance types of criticism in the above. I think you can get the right kime and distancing by inserting hand held targets to actually impact during the movements, and the right commitment by teaching applications from the get-go. Currently I try to teach an application for each and every sequence of a kata before I teach the kata itself. Then the application training just appears to be interesting kihon practiced first in air, then with a partner. But I teach from attacks that include grabs, which tournament karate doesn't really address. So tournament kata will of course look much prettier than application based kata. What is it you want to learn? Or better, what is it that you want your kata to reinforce? Now I will admit, my students have often heard me say "this is shotokan - it has to look pretty" - but they never get the idea that the look is more important than the flow of power through each movement.
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Post by kensei on Oct 29, 2012 20:58:42 GMT
. ...The movements are sloppy because they not only lack Kime but they also end up looking to run together with no timing and proper use of distance/idea of distance. I am hearing tournament performance types of criticism in the above. First off, never a criticism, just a difference of opinion, please don’t take it as me attacking you or criticizing your approach, just not agreeing or not seeing eye to eye…and for a guy as short as me..I’m used to it. Secondly, bite your tongue “Tournament performance”! I don’t teach sport Karate nor do I have any interest in the flashy dramas that the tournament types put on. Its fun to watch sometimes but often leaves you feeling like you want more! Or that its missing something. I think you can get the right kime and distancing by inserting hand held targets to actually impact during the movements, and the right commitment by teaching applications from the get-go. Could not agree more about teaching application from the get go, however I think its in phases when you teach beginners. I mean I teach them and demo the particular application I want to see and let them know their maybe more, heck I might even demo two or three…and one or two out of the box ideas. However, by inserting impact training, which I agree with and think is a grand Idea…are you not now demonstrating proper Kime in your targeting the strike, or do you advocate the slap and run kind of fighting I have seen in some instructors applications? But I teach from attacks that include grabs, which tournament karate doesn't really address. See, again we agree. I have been teaching applications with grabs and throws, sweeps and unique applications that tournament types have not really addressed for years. The thing is movement must have a starting point and a ending point in the kinesthetic sense of the movement. You move and you stop, it might be for a hairs width of time, but you must focus something at some time….or you fail to do Kata as if it’s a set of sequences against singular attackers practiced in one Kata and start teaching the idea of fighting four to seven guys all at once, something I can not stand when others try to teach this way and have failed to tell students that no matter how skilled you are, if you are attacked by more than two people you are toast…and even the ordinary student may have a hard time with two! What is it you want to learn? Or better, what is it that you want your kata to reinforce? Kata should teach you self-preservation techniques that can be used against an attacker form different points of attack. It should house different strategies for defending yourself from attack from different angles and with different weapons (arms or legs) and should teach you proper attitude in defending yourself. It should reinforce mechanics and create muscle memory so you react to things without thought often and with just a change in your focus. Kata should dictate a specific attitude towards defending and should offer options when given a specific situation. (IE the more ways to deal with a specific situation the better off you are as long as they are simple and to the point) Now I will admit, my students have often heard me say "this is shotokan - it has to look pretty" - but they never get the idea that the look is more important than the flow of power through each movement. Shotokan Kata should not be pretty; it should not be Ugly as well. It can be aesthetically balanced, but it’s not a requirement for someone looking to learn to defend themselves….that’s tournament thinking!
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Post by elmar on Oct 29, 2012 23:47:32 GMT
Secondly, bite your tongue “Tournament performance”! OK consider the tongue bitten ... I was not accusing anyone of anything, but I think you can admit that the (over-)emphasis on a pretty ending position is paramount to those interested in kata trophies, no? "slap and run" ? LOL - Haven't heard that one. There is a place for a well placed slap in the middle of a sequence, though. And in the end, run is "kata #1", isn't it? If you consider the aikido ideas of extension and projection, you may see more where I have my emphasis. I feel that if you work too much on stopping a technique at a particular point in space/time, instead of extending and projecting the technique to that point, you miss the power flow, and risk instead "hitting yourself" with the isometric type of stopping effort..
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Post by kensei on Oct 30, 2012 12:57:02 GMT
OK consider the tongue bitten ... I was not accusing anyone of anything, but I think you can admit that the (over-)emphasis on a pretty ending position is paramount to those interested in kata trophies, no? LOL, You know half the time I post to you its trying to figure out how we think the same thing but are saying it in completely different ways that screw me up! I totally agree that the emphasis on pretty endings and even on trying to find your way back to a particular spot on the floor after a Kata is complete is more sport Karate and working for points. Which is NOT my intent at all when doing a Kata or teaching a Kata….However, some of the things I teach may be misconstrued as “Sporty” like the attitude in Kata and how at the ending you have to look and feel ready when finishing the kata and moving to Ready position. But that to me is a coincidence of intersecting ideals! "slap and run" ? LOL - Haven't heard that one. There is a place for a well placed slap in the middle of a sequence, though. And in the end, run is "kata #1", isn't it? LOL, yes I suppose it is! The Slap and run Kata I was referring to was a Asai Kata, which I have been watching a lot of lately and to be frank…most of them don’t introduce much more to me than the other Katas do. Some are very fun to watch and might even be something of interest to train, but often…I see Kata I am not impressed with and those that just rehash things in other Kata. I find Asai Sensei to have been innovative, impossibly skilled and frankly his skills are alien to most of us physically. But I also find many of his Kata to be slappy and sloppy looking when done by others. If you consider the aikido ideas of extension and projection, you may see more where I have my emphasis. I feel that if you work too much on stopping a technique at a particular point in space/time, instead of extending and projecting the technique to that point, you miss the power flow, and risk instead "hitting yourself" with the isometric type of stopping effort.. I agree to some extent. I have seen way to many stomping moves that end the flow of power into a technique. But the idea of “flowing” form one movement to the next and not stopping is what I kind of have an issue with….and again….just my interpretation of your posts and something I am sure you don’t mean. I am seeing a student doing Heian Shodan without stopping or pausing, moving from down block to punch without stopping and then recoiling to the next down block and punch before veering off to the next down block and three punches with no breaks, pauses or focus….just one big movement without a finishing power in any of the moves. To me that kind of moving is sloppy and lacks power and also takes away from the idea that Kata is not about dealing with one person in one particular situation at one time….then the next person at the next time and then next situation. It make me think of the old days when instructors told students that Kata is all about fighting 4,5 or even 7 opponents. It confuses the student if run like that and to me takes away from the intent of the Kata to teach sequences of self-defense not a dance with many attackers. Again, its just my way of seeing a kata done the way you probably don’t mean it to be done in the first place. But I hope you can see how that may be seen.
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Post by elmar on Oct 30, 2012 20:05:19 GMT
If you consider the aikido ideas of extension and projection, you may see more where I have my emphasis. I feel that if you work too much on stopping a technique at a particular point in space/time, instead of extending and projecting the technique to that point, you miss the power flow, and risk instead "hitting yourself" with the isometric type of stopping effort.. I agree to some extent. I have seen way to many stomping moves that end the flow of power into a technique. But the idea of “flowing” form one movement to the next and not stopping is what I kind of have an issue with….and again….just my interpretation of your posts and something I am sure you don’t mean. I am seeing a student doing Heian Shodan without stopping or pausing, moving from down block to punch without stopping and then recoiling to the next down block and punch before veering off to the next down block and three punches with no breaks, pauses or focus….just one big movement without a finishing power in any of the moves. OK - now I get what you are complaining about - the conversion of a kata into one long sequence of flowing moves, similar to what the shotokai does, right? As you surmised, that is not what I was about. First, I was referring to the execution of any single movement, say a stgepping punch. One can execute it by doing a "make the gi snap" type of movement, essentially pulling all the power out of the arm back into your back at the "focus" just to make the technique "stop." I find that simply wrong. Next, I also teach in sequences, and there is in fact a full stop at the end of each sequence. So here I think we agree perfectly.
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Post by th0mas on Oct 30, 2012 20:37:15 GMT
Lol I see Elmar and James are just debating how they shuffle their angels on a pin-head
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Post by kensei on Oct 30, 2012 21:12:36 GMT
@ Elmar..>See Told you we were talking the same thing in different ways...and yes, I agree 100% on that.....
@ Thomas....it sometimes is required that we be picky and confused to learn! LOL, and often its a matter of comprehension on my part...which I whole heartedly admit!
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Post by Gerry Boyce on Nov 23, 2012 17:14:36 GMT
When I started relearning kata nearly three years ago I used a cat stance as the half-way stance while going through them (the Heian katas in particular). Doing so enabled me to check my posture, etc., while preloading the thrusting leg for the second half of the movement. As the movements became more familiar I did away with the "intermediate stance" so each technique flowed as it is supposed to.
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