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Post by malk103 on Nov 6, 2012 9:50:02 GMT
In both Kanku Dai and Sho there is a move where you touch the ground, practically in the press up position with the right leg bent and the left leg straight out - in Dai the foot is pointing to the side and in Sho the toes are touching the ground - as if you were on the starting blocks of a running race. Why the difference in left foot position?
Also, what's the best applications for these moves, is it to duck under something, to take someone to ground or to kick out behind?
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Post by Bob Davis on Nov 6, 2012 11:13:19 GMT
I was looking at that very posture just the other day in one of Rick Clark's old ju jitsu books in my collection.
His usage was a low drive against your opponents leading leg to take them over backwards (as you've locked the knee joint and it's the only way to go).
I'll look out the book again tonight and see if I can come up with a fuller description.
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Post by th0mas on Nov 6, 2012 12:47:57 GMT
Hi Bob and Mal
I can't picture the difference between Sho and Dai at the moment (blame my brain meltdown for that), but I would concur with Bob's position.
In Kenku Dai the moves prior to the drop are head-height breaking/striking motions followed by the drop to the running position. In my eyes it is a classic shoot motion... faint high then drop low for a shoot take down.
I would suggest given the sequence displayed in the kata, that it may be an alternative move... failing to take control with the break and augmented strike you drop low and drive forward with your shoulder into their knees.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2012 15:21:33 GMT
I agree with the shoot, take down application for dai and sho. Best karate shows the foot positions as Mal describes. The only possible explanation I can think of for the foot positioning between the two kata is that the sho version is the position after a jump so it might be for a safe landing! Just tried it in the Banana, it's just a guess. Ha ha ha.
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Post by Paul Bedard on Nov 7, 2012 0:38:36 GMT
Hi Guys. Good topic!! In Kanku Dai we have discussed the rear foot usage with Master Yutaka Yaguchi & he is of the opinion that either the ball of the foot or the whole inside edge of the foot on the ground. With the whole foot on the ground you are more stable, but with the ball of the foot you can usually recover back to stand up easier. For some of us, the whole foot method is to hard on the knee, so myself I use the ball of the rear leg, so it doesn`t pull my poor old knee. The bunkai that I like for Kanku dai is the shoot to the hips, with my shoulder pushing the opponents hips, while I`m pulling the back of his knees in. They usually go down quite quickly. Kanku sho, one variation that Sensei Hiroshi Okazaki shared with us, is using a crescent kick, then follow through to use ushiro geri as you extend to the point that you are bending over with your hands on the ground & arms are pushing as you extend your hip into the kick. I have seen where others use this type of back kick & call it a mule kick. The one thing about bunkai, is there are no records to say that this move is a certain technique to be used in a certain way. So in our studies if you discover a technique that uses the principle taught in the kata, then this is a `nice idea`..
Osu
Paul B
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Post by tomobrien on Nov 7, 2012 2:04:20 GMT
Good stuff! I'm gonna do Kanku Dai @ an AAU comp on 11/18 Thanks, Tom
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Post by tomobrien on Dec 6, 2012 3:34:06 GMT
Ha! The practice paid off! Took gold in all three (in the 'old geezer's division
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Post by elmar on Dec 6, 2012 21:06:49 GMT
Posture analysts, the lot of you! Sheesh! Look at the preceding posture at least. In KD, clamp a forearm on his neck and grab his ear with the other hand while you ram a knee into the groin, then hang on and turn as you plant the foot in front of his legs - he falls over them onto the floor in front of you as you hammer his skull into the ground. Then take his head and break the neck as you jump up. In KS, the attack comes from the back; you lean away, wrap your arm to grab, and spin jump onto the guy's back, slamming his face in the ground. Same neck break finish.
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Post by jimlukelkc on Dec 11, 2012 9:36:03 GMT
I agree with the shoot, take down application for dai and sho. Best karate shows the foot positions as Mal describes. The only possible explanation I can think of for the foot positioning between the two kata is that the sho version is the position after a jump so it might be for a safe landing! Just tried it in the Banana, it's just a guess. Ha ha ha. Remember, its not really a jump, so analyse the foot position from the point of view of having executed a throw!
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Post by Paul Bedard on Dec 12, 2012 1:29:12 GMT
You know. I wasn`t quite sure on how to read you Elmar. I thought you to be quite serious. Now I know `You are serious`. Smashing skulls, to the ground & breaking necks!!! My kind of serious. Osu Paul B
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Post by dek1 on Dec 13, 2012 21:07:22 GMT
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Post by th0mas on Dec 14, 2012 10:15:22 GMT
Sorry Derek... link not working.. :-(
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Post by dek1 on Dec 14, 2012 17:47:27 GMT
I dont know how to capture it but will try and find out. It was taken last week in japan by some from our association
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Post by daveb on Dec 24, 2012 10:48:46 GMT
The foot position is a meaningless detail, your foot will land how it lands. Under the stress of having your life threatened and the effects of adrenalin you will not likely have the presence of mind or the coordination to worry about toes down or toes out. Such details are for the dojo and relevant to the discipline of solo forms, not to application training imo. It's like worrying about vertical fist or horizontal fist or single point fist. Whichever will hurt your opponent s the right one. Learning how to see kata methods as independent of the detail of form is key to turning dead patterns into live fighting.
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Post by Paul Bedard on Dec 28, 2012 1:45:13 GMT
Not quite sure that I agree with you here David. How we train is how we react. Almost any change to a move might also change it`s application. For example the foot sideways is more stable on the ground, but the foot forward on the ball makes for a quicker recovery to spring back up, or to drive forward. Also IMHO the vertical fist would be a different application than a horizontal fist. However the beauty of being human is we have opinions!!
Osu
Paul B
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Post by daveb on Dec 28, 2012 13:41:03 GMT
Hi Paul. I agree, how we train is how we react, but when we fight our training and our choices are not the only factors. Your opponent can and will alter the situation including your own position and movement. When that happens you need to adapt to what is happening, not stick rigidly to patterns trained in the dojo.
Note: I am in no way dismissing the importance of form. Form is tactically vital to a conflict, however we are Looking at applying a form, a dead pattern, to the chaotic environment of a live fight. We have to know what is an absolute; that which we're we to abandon it we would put ourselves in danger, and what we can adapt to individual and situational needs. In my view category b is much bigger than category a.
The way I see it we determine application through analysing the major aspects of a form. Minor aspects likethe angle of a foot change from teacher to teacher and style to style, as they should. Once you have an application you practice it live and experiment with its execution to find what works for you and let that practical experience inform your execution of the minordetails in solo practice.
And yes, in a kata a vertical fist may have a different application to a horizontal fist, but in fight, a punch is just a punch. Fist connects with body with the aim of doing harm. That is the principle and the principle can manifest any number of ways. It is principles we need to apply, not techniques, otherwise we will be trappedby our forms instead of liberated by them.
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Post by Paul Bedard on Dec 29, 2012 6:15:00 GMT
Hi David; I do agree to a certain point that the opponent dictates some of the factors of a fight. However I also have to say that a goal would be to be the controller not the controlled. Also I am not quite sure on what you are getting at about sticking to patterns. It would be a real beginner that thinks that a kata or forms that we learn in the dojo are to be carbon copied in the case of a fight. For example in kata to think that an opponent would be exactly where we are visualizing him in the form is ludicrous. In kata we learn block attack, evade attack, get in get out, divide & conquer, throw, manipulate etc.. Not how to dance with an opponent for a whole sequence of moves. Kata is a series of one, two & three move combinations, put together into a form that we can use for a type of shadow boxing, nothing more. However it also is to help us investigate what we can do with the idea of the move. One thing that we try to achieve is the perfection of technique, so that when we do fight & go with spirit first technique second then we have something of substance. Oh & I can`t say that I agree with the vertical fist analogy either, IMHO a verticle fist can be rapid fired, howevr it doesn`t have the extention or connection of a horizontal fist. There are punches for softening up the opponent (make chance) & others for finishing. Some work well for some people as well as different punches work well for others. In no way am I trying to undermine your thoughts, but expressing that I`m thinking differently.. One experience that has happened to me is in certain situations time seems to slow down, to the point that it` almost like slow motion & you can alter your movement to achieve the angle that you want. I`m not saying that it has always happened, but the last couple, welll......
Paul B
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Post by daveb on Dec 29, 2012 11:30:49 GMT
It would be a real beginner that thinks that a kata or forms that we learn in the dojo are to be carbon copied in the case of a fight. For example in kata to think that an opponent would be exactly where we are visualizing him in the form is ludicrous. Precisely my point. There are details we must hold onto and details we must be ready to let go of because, exactly as you state above, it's not going to work like it does in the dojo. Most of the applications for this part of kanku dai involve a tackle of some kind ending up on the floor. You don't get a more circumstantial application than that as any variation in surface, angle, momentum etc etc will produce different results in terms of how you land. Agreed, but we are not imo talking about a technical point that has relevance outside of a dojo for the reasons stated above. If after testing the application in semi-free and free continuous exercises over and over you find it makes a significant difference to the course of a fight then by all means invest the time and energy to make it trained response, but without that confirmation of its relevance in actual fighting/self defence I would recommend only worrying about it in terms of the mental discipline if solo forms training. If anyone is willing to put the work in to confirm the usefulness of the various foot positions of this kanku dai technique in actual application I would be very interested to read their report. I am always happy to be proved wrong as it gives me a chance to learn. As for the vertical fist... Hold your fist out straight, then rotate it between horizontal and vertical positions. See a difference? I don't. There are ways to use one method that don't translate as well to the other, but that misses the point. I am talking on the level of "why do we punch?" not "which punch is best when?". There are times for both questions to be answered, I suggest to you that the heat of battle where the primal survival instinct is in charge is the time for the more fundamental of the two questions. When it comes to punching how many press-ups you did will weigh far more than how far you turned your wrist.
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