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Post by Bob Davis on Jan 6, 2013 18:15:24 GMT
OK, as we are a bit short of active topics and the subject came up in passing in another thread. Why do we practice such a high number of Kata in shotokan and how did we land with the 26 we have? Given that pretty much every Kata we train has be adapted to suit the Shotokan style much of the original intent will have been lost so are they still teaching us anything? What was lacking in the original 15 that is made up for by the inclusion of the new (to shotokan) Kata? Does each Kata really have something different to teach us? Were the Kata increased to cover gaps in the principals of Shotokan practice that were not being covered by what we already had or were they added for "breadth" (i.e. something new in the bank to learn after black belt) in place of any actual "depth" in teaching a full understanding of what we already had? (I realise this may be a slightly contentious one but it is a possibility). Anyway, just to get the ball rolling....
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Post by tomobrien on Jan 7, 2013 2:23:31 GMT
Some good questions. I'm not qualified to answer but I'd like to see what some of the answers are.
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Post by nathanso on Jan 7, 2013 7:42:58 GMT
Why do we practice such a high number of Kata in shotokan and how did we land with the 26 we have? What was lacking in the original 15 that is made up for by the inclusion of the new (to shotokan) Kata? Remember that the "26 kata" syllabus is the norm for the JKA and its offshoots but not for all streams of shotokan. Ohshima's organization only does the 15 that are in KdK. Given what was supposedly the different attitudes towards the commercialization of karate exhibited by the early JKA compared to its contemporaneous competitors, I wonder if that played a part as a way to keep students interested in learning "new" and different things as they advanced.
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Post by elmar on Jan 7, 2013 13:03:01 GMT
OTOH - doesn't Hayashi-ha Shito-ryu have 55 kata, and that's just the empty hand ones (weapons kata are in addition)? Each federation has to make a balance decision between being encyclopedic and being intensive. 26 as a number has no special meaning in my view - it's just historical accident.
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Post by daveb on Jan 7, 2013 13:50:53 GMT
Every source I've ever read including at least one or two who were there at the time have stated that the extra kata were added because students were getting bored drilling the same sequences over and over. That in those days kata training consisted solely of repetition of the form and more forms were needed to hold people's interest.
I believe Gichin Funakoshi when he writes that his 15 kata syllabus is a good overview of karate as it was and that most karate masters taught systems of 3 to 5 kata. 26 kata is a ridiculous number if you believe in deep study of forms as I do. This was why I limited my study of kata to the original 15 forms. On the other hand it does give opportunity for a wide variety of stylistic preferences in combat methods.
I have my own ideas about why karate was being taught without application, but I think they may be outside the scope of the discussion. What I will say though is that I think Yoshitaka Funakoshi was the main person responsible for Shotokanising new forms and I think he knew and understood application of kata for fighting as I don't think anything was lost in that process.
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Post by th0mas on Jan 7, 2013 18:43:45 GMT
Some good questions. I'm not qualified to answer but I'd like to see what some of the answers are. Never stopped me before... My view (for what it's worth) is that adding additional kata was one of the tactics to legitimise the "Shotokan" version (as practiced and promoted by Yoshitaka and Nakayama etc) in Japan. If understanding the application is a distant secondary objective to having flashy-karate-dances to impress the natives (who also knew no better) it would seem to me to be a good strategy.... if promoting "Shotokan" karate was your sole aim. It may not have been as cynical as that, I suspect Nakayama and his colleagues (Yoshitaka was dead by 1944 ?) were not advocates of the traditional Kata Bunkai teaching approach. Certainly adopting the kendo/western style military "square bashing" training regime with big expansive, expressive and explosive striking and hitting movements certainly looks more impressive to the untrained eye. I think it is quite obvious that the aim of the proto-shotokan organisation was to collect and incorporate as many kata forms as possible (irrespective of the rationale i outlined above) and understanding the underlying applications was certainly less important or irrelevant to those early Japanese karate pioneers. If you have any doubts just look at how "classical Shotokan kata" is taught in most dojo's... these failings were also inherited by the Shotokan offshoots such as shotokai, Tang Soo Do and tae kwon do....
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Post by kensei on Jan 8, 2013 13:50:26 GMT
Funakoshi knew more than the 15 Kata, he selected the 15 to teach because he was teaching a whole bunch of newbies. Once they started to stick around and learn he started to send students to his juniors who had come to Japan to learn new Kata...and Funakoshi's son and Nakayama did take Kata from Shito ryu and add to the 15 Kata base and came up with the 26.
I used to think that 15 was enough, then I thought that 26 was enough and probably to much. But I began training in some Goju stuff and found that I liked a few of their Kata. I dont teach them but I do train in a few.
Now, you wan to ask "isnt 26 enough"....why not ask Asai Sensei's orginization, Asa was the JKA Chief instructor for a bit, they teach over 50 Kata from my last count! Thats not including the 26 original Kata...how the hell do you remember that many??
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Jan 8, 2013 20:38:15 GMT
If you visit Andre Bertel's blogspot he republished "The Asai Bujutsu Karate Kata" on the 3rd January.
In the article he mentions that he has 89 kata at his disposal!
Best Regards Allan
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Post by kensei on Jan 9, 2013 12:27:23 GMT
In the article he mentions that he has 89 kata at his disposal! Well, thats better....I mean 89 is so much better and makes so much more sense than 100
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Jan 9, 2013 14:29:38 GMT
I suppose the number of kata we practice is either dictated by the organisation that we are members of OR if training alone what is seen to be appropriate for our own personal regime. Well, yes from a sort of sarcastic way 89 is better than 100 but that is probably because he spends more time in the dojo than on the keyboard even with his ongoing blog!! Why don't we simplify things and pick one kata and train it to death in the hope that when "shove comes to push" it gives us enough techniques to deal with the situation....then we can increase our multiple forum keyboard activity on a par to the number of kata available. What is being failed to recognise is the FACT that there are many other kata available If we have the notion to learn them, if we do not please do not knock other Karateka who do! Best Regards Allan
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Post by kensei on Jan 9, 2013 14:58:36 GMT
I was not knocking anyone...I was being a smart arse! ;D For one thing, if you can remember all 89, which I dont think anyone can really, My hats off to you because you have a FANTASTIC memory...hell if you can remember all 26 well enough you are doing great in my books. My question is based more on why so many...especially when you look at "Kata" like Mae-geri no Kata! I am going to guess here that its about the front kick right I have dug into Goju Kata to see what kind of things they have to offer and was pleasently supprised, not that I am going to convert but they have some very nice Kata with things to offer for sure. As for Andri/Asai's 89...well I leave those for people with a much better memmory than me and way more time on thier hands! But again, much props to them if they can remember them all.
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Post by daveb on Jan 9, 2013 21:46:09 GMT
Why don't we simplify things and pick one kata and train it to death in the hope that when "shove comes to push" it gives us enough techniques to deal with the situation....then we can increase our multiple forum keyboard activity on a par to the number of kata available. If all we did was repeat the form over and over we might have more keyboard time, but the keyboard wouldn't get a look in if we engaged in a deep study with the aim of developing skills.
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Post by kensei on Jan 9, 2013 22:21:39 GMT
If all we did was repeat the form over and over we might have more keyboard time, but the keyboard wouldn't get a look in if we engaged in a deep study with the aim of developing skills. Not very realistic, but I think you were kind of joking right....right?
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Post by daveb on Jan 9, 2013 23:22:58 GMT
Nope. From little acorns mighty oak trees grow.
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Post by kensei on Jan 10, 2013 12:53:02 GMT
Nope. From little acorns mighty oak trees grow. LMAO, I like you Dave....you sound like a fortune cookie half the time but you entertain! ;D
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Post by malk103 on Jan 10, 2013 16:20:00 GMT
From my understanding of Kata they hold within them multiple applications for self defence or 2 man drills, if there were only say 100 odd drills/applications that were worth learning then you could probably cram them into 20 odd Kata.
If you just learn the Kata to pass the next grade, competitions or be able to pass them on then that's fine but if you are learning Kata to eventually explore the applications then 26 should in theory give you months/years worth of study. Then if there are duplicate moves/drills in more than one Kata then you would be just repeating them? Hopefully you get what I mean there.... Like the 4 Shuto Ukes at the end of Heian Shodan, once you have learnt every application you can from these then why have them pop up again in Heian Nidan, Kanku Dai, Sochin etc? If one Kata holds moves from several other Kata then is it worth studying? Apart from just learning a new routine.
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Post by daveb on Jan 10, 2013 17:18:05 GMT
Kensei, have you never read Bill Burgar's Five years one kata?
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Post by kensei on Jan 10, 2013 17:32:01 GMT
Kensei, have you never read Bill Burgar's Five years one kata? a while back I read it...very interesting how he went out of his way to study one specific Kata...but in so many different versions and ways that it was really a indepth look at how his special Kata evolved!. Great book and perhaps a good way to view true study!
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Post by Bob Davis on Jan 10, 2013 18:16:49 GMT
BUT, if that were all they were teaching us then why not just practice rational, known and understood 2 man drills rather than trying to decode the "secrets" from a kata as if that give us a better tool for learning? (just playing devil's advocate )
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Post by kensei on Jan 10, 2013 19:00:42 GMT
BUT, if that were all they were teaching us then why not just practice rational, known and understood 2 man drills rather than trying to decode the "secrets" from a kata as if that give us a better tool for learning? (just playing devil's advocate ) I love it....Okay, the reason is in the very reason that Kata were created in the first place over just 2 man forms....they were made to be the text book of Karate and to teach people the systems of fighting of individuals. They were meant to be a encompasment of the feel and the system and style of a persons individual fighting art. 2 man drills would hav probably done just as good...but why not just teach people basics a specific way and then kumite drills? Why are the birds able to fly so high, why is the sky blue...answer...because!
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Post by nathanso on Jan 10, 2013 20:15:38 GMT
Why are the birds able to fly so high... Because they practice the bunkai for their flying kata?
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Post by Bob Davis on Jan 10, 2013 20:51:44 GMT
Tell that to the Kiwi
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Post by th0mas on Jan 11, 2013 8:02:40 GMT
Hi Bob, was that a very clever underhand comment about 89 kata's or am i reading too much into the Bobism?
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Post by Bob Davis on Jan 11, 2013 8:53:29 GMT
Simply the first flightless bird that came to mind (honest )
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Post by th0mas on Jan 11, 2013 10:13:05 GMT
From my understanding of Kata they hold within them multiple applications for self defence or 2 man drills, if there were only say 100 odd drills/applications that were worth learning then you could probably cram them into 20 odd Kata. If you just learn the Kata to pass the next grade, competitions or be able to pass them on then that's fine but if you are learning Kata to eventually explore the applications then 26 should in theory give you months/years worth of study. Then if there are duplicate moves/drills in more than one Kata then you would be just repeating them? Hopefully you get what I mean there.... Like the 4 Shuto Ukes at the end of Heian Shodan, once you have learnt every application you can from these then why have them pop up again in Heian Nidan, Kanku Dai, Sochin etc? If one Kata holds moves from several other Kata then is it worth studying? Apart from just learning a new routine. There is an interesting dichotamy here... On the one hand we are all built the same way (within an acceptable size range and body shape) having two legs, two arms and one head etc. There can only be so many ways in which to manipulate and inflict pain... therefore there must be a lot of repetition of techniques used across the 26 shotokan katas (..and all other kata's for that matter) (and of course there are... ) So why have so many..? or to ask it in a different way; why did Xxxxx sensei create another kata when all the potential techniques are already covered in the existing katas? If you view a kata is a Martial training tool (not unlike a lesson plan) that although helpful in solo training, is best used as part of an instructor-lead lesson, then it goes some ways to explaining the large variety of kata. If you are a teacher and you are trying to create a lesson structure to teach a particular theme or concept you would break down the different elements into easily digestible parts, show many examples and probably put it in some sort of chronological order (Just like a kata i.e. Kenku-dai or the heians). The use of story telling and parable is a classic teaching method used throughout history. The individual elements or examples you would use in your lesson would not be unique (shuto combinations, punching, kicking, throws, locks etc), but when wrapped together as part of a whole, it provides a teaching structure that supports the understanding of a wider theme (or principles or concepts or whatever..such as good strategies for dealing with the chaos of fighting - gaining and maintaining control and dominating your opponent...) Now you might, having taught the fundamentals, want to then expand on a particular theme, and create a new lesson structure to cover more advanced aspects of the same concept..(such as an in Kenku-sho or Bassai-Sho) So why so many kata... Because there have been many teachers, there are many potential senario's where you might be in danger, there are many strategies and tactics that you can employ etc etc for example: - 1) when do I apply this limited number of applications/techniques?
- 2) In what order should they be performed to elicit an expected response so that I can maintain dominance?
- 3) what tactics and strategies are most effective given a particular situation etc?
- 4) I have seen something really cool done by another teacher, how can distill his fighting principles and record it? (this is a common one)
- 5)and so on...
Obviously this increases the number of combinations and variety significantly...and I have not even touched on style and cosmetic variances.
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Jan 11, 2013 10:24:37 GMT
Hi Bob
Thought the first flightless bird that would come to mind would be the Dodo!
Worst thing in the world for a martial artist (or anyone for that matter) is to criticise someone and their ethnic origin WITHOUT having meet or trained with them.
Thought that this site had advanced beyond name calling. We all have christian and surnames and should be addressed as so.
Tell me Bob, are you THE Master Bob Davis from Texas? Apologies to the real Master Bob Davis from Texas if you are not.
Best Regards Allan
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Post by th0mas on Jan 11, 2013 10:49:38 GMT
Tell me Bob, are you THE Master Bob Davis from Texas? Apologies to the real Master Bob Davis from Texas if you are not. Ha ha ha ha ;D ... just googled Master Bob Davis online ... too be fair to Bob, I think it was me stirring... (and if your a rugby fan I believe you would have picked kiwi over dodo for first choice of flightless bird anyway)
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Jan 11, 2013 11:10:15 GMT
Hi Tom
No probs, we are what we are?.....just thought that we had moved on from smart arse (James's words) and stirring. Banter yes......smart arse and stirring no thank you!
Best Regards Allan
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Post by Bob Davis on Jan 11, 2013 11:14:21 GMT
Hi Alan,
I know I will get canned again for "name calling" but you really are an a*se sometimes (and that's fair play, we have more than one admin for a reason).
The fact that you choose to constantly read between the lines and interpret everything as a veiled attack (rather than a throw away, light hearted comment that is going with the flow and in context with the thread) says a lot more about you than the rest of us I think.
I was not around in the time of the Dodo so I'll bow to your (once again, oh so superior) knowledge.
Speaking as someone with close family links to New Zealand the Kiwi IS JUST THE FIRST FLIGHTLESS BIRD THAT COMES TO MIND.
In order to protect the reputation of an innocent bystander (that for some reason you seem to want to open to ridicule), no, I am not that Bob Davis.
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Jan 11, 2013 14:04:34 GMT
Oh Bob!
Why do you think I constantly read between the lines and interpret everything as a veiled attack? I did not author "smart arse" nor "stirring" nor "tell that to the kiwi"
Who do you represent when you say "says a lot more about you than the rest of us I think"? Who are the rest of us?
I also was not around when the Dodo was alive, you need to bow to the internet (google) for their superior knowledge. It was not my intention to ridicule anyone, to quote yourself that is possibly you reading between the lines. Read the last sentence of my posting which is pre emptying the fact that THE real Master Bob Davis from Texas is NOT you.
I thought that this topic was to discuss why we practice such a high number of kata in Shotokan?
Anyone with any sensible answers or thoughts/ideas?
Best Regards Allan
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