|
Post by malk103 on Feb 26, 2013 9:30:00 GMT
Just looking for the correct - or most popular method - for this move as i've seen it done both ways. After the first several moves you do a lower crossed fist block (left fist as in Gedan Barai, right fist virtical punch) then pull in to your chest, then open handed upper crossed block, the hands withdraw to your right hip while twisting wrist to wrist (i've seen this done differently as well...) your left hand then punches** to the front and you immediately do a stepping punch with right side.
** Is this a left hand punch or virtical open handed push/block/strike.
It would take me ages to try and express this in Japanese and I would get most of it wrong.
In GF book it clearly shows as a left punch before the Oi-Zuki. Thinking of applications the most obvious it to intercept an attackers right punch and pull it down to your right hip, push or strike his head/neck with your left hand than follow through with a pushing strike to head/neck as it is still at your chest hieght.
|
|
|
Post by Allan Shepherd on Feb 26, 2013 10:41:10 GMT
Hi Mal
In the kata the technique is palm heel strike (teisho uchi) followed by lunge punch (oi zuki) since the zenkutsu dachi chudan osae uke pulls the opponent towards you whilst you step forward to strike the face followed by attack to face, throat or sternum etc.
The technique can also be used as palm heel block (teisho uke) if in the interim period a punch comes as you pull opponent towards you.
Best Regards Allan
|
|
|
Post by jimlukelkc on Feb 26, 2013 11:07:44 GMT
Mal, I tend to teach the primary function of this as, following control of the arm, a peeling back of the head, either from a hair grab/control or thumb under nose/eyes etc. prior to stepping through with the oi-tsuki. This is just as viable if the fist is closed and is is illustrated by Heian Yondan where the back fist before the empi can be interpreted as a yanking the head back to facilitate the elbow strike. The confusion ensues if it is viewed as a strike exclusively.
|
|
|
Post by th0mas on Feb 26, 2013 13:20:13 GMT
Hi Mal
Understanding what you're doing prior to the last two techniques should answer your question...
I am in agreement with Jim on this one.
It is the same application movement you see in the beginning of Gankaku. As an illustration... your attacker grabs at your neck with either their right or both hands. The rising x-block (apologies I don't know the Japanese) breaks the grip (the flat top side of your left hand and palm of your right, is the contact point) and leads on to locking your opponents right arm (with his head dropping to chudan height). This is the control position as described in the beginning of Jim's post.
Cheers
Tom
|
|
|
Post by nathanso on Feb 27, 2013 7:25:32 GMT
FWIW, in kata as performance art, I have always done this as a straight punch with the left prior to the right lunge punch. That is also how it is shown both in BK and in Sugiyama's book. For applications, it can of course be whatever you want.
|
|
|
Post by jimlukelkc on Feb 27, 2013 9:33:14 GMT
The X-block ( juji-uke ) does not really work as a block. Test it to destruction. This is often portrayed as a block to a kick and then a block to the upper level but this only works when being kicked mae-geri and punched choku-tsuki/oi-tsuki etc. Kata applications should not start with that premise. It works as a trap/lock/ and a peel away/control of the arm. Therefore if it works in one scenario and not in another, common sense would argue for the most effective. Tom brings up a good point about bringing the head down to chudan height. Almost all punches in kata are aimed at chudan level which would indicate that the preceeding technique does just this; bringing the head down. Otherwise we would have to assume all punches are meant to be aimed chudan which makes little sense. Personally I was always taught and have always practiced the technique in question as tate-shuto but I dont feel it matters particularly.
|
|
|
Post by malk103 on Feb 27, 2013 13:21:37 GMT
Thanks all for taking the time out to reply, i've now seen it done as a punch, palm heel strike and open virtical hand.
The basic applications always seem to show the Juji Uke against a Mae Geri which is fine for training but not a very realistic thing to do, apart from not getting many Mae Geri's thrown at you in a pub fight you are risking breaking your arms and leaving your head exposed. I prefer to apply x block applications like a pushing down with one hand while stiking the neck with the other which could explain the different wrist angles, on the way up I drill a wrist grab and locking your wrists together and pulling up underneath to dislodge their grab. (their right hand grabs your left wrist, push your right fist under their wrist but on top of your left, then lift up) The upper X block could be against a neck but prefer an arm block/grab and then pull down to right hip. As in Bassai/Kanku where your open virtical left hand goes out, it could be a strike or simply pushing their face away, then they can't see the next punch coming.
|
|
|
Post by garage on Feb 27, 2013 15:27:20 GMT
How about a football kick to groin followed by a overhead bottle which the second block pull arm and twist to open armpit and get the nerves in the armpit.
The only trouble is the arm is in the way when you step forward but the armpit normally hits the off switch anyway. A front kick normally approaches horizontally so the block does really work against it. This worked down the pub.
|
|
|
Post by th0mas on Feb 27, 2013 17:53:36 GMT
... I prefer to apply x block applications.... on the way up I drill a wrist grab and locking your wrists together and pulling up underneath to dislodge their grab. (their right hand grabs your left wrist, push your right fist under their wrist but on top of your left, then lift up) .... Hi Mal I recognise the wrist locking action as one of Iain Abernethy's interpretations..and one of only the few I just can't get on with. Personally I think there are a number of better wrist breaking applications that don't leave you so exposed. I realise that there is no "right way" and of course this could all be totally down to my own poor execution. But in the mess and chaos of a close in fight, it just feels overly fiddly. Basic Shotokan yoi has a lovely function against an opposite hand grab, or the opening moves of tekki Shodan.. In fact I can think of one that only requires one hand.. Am I missing something? When you drill it are there any particular tips to making it work effectively..especially against a resistant opponent? Cheers Tom
|
|
|
Post by malk103 on Feb 27, 2013 21:03:59 GMT
Yes, i'm a fan of Iain Abernethy, I like the wrist lock application but also realise that if they are larger/stronger then it probably won't work, height also has a factor as you are trying to raise their shoulder up. If i'm on the ball then I will throw in an alternative but i'm still learning too. ;D Just don't like the idea of sticking my wrists in front of someones shins. I've seen/drilled another application while closer and grappling, you are bent forward and use X block to intercept a knee/thigh coming upwards, it more of cushons the blow rather than stops it, but lessens the impact of a kneecap.
Another way of looking at the lower x block when it comes up towards your chest, you could be choking someone? Bit difficult to drill this one though as the parents tend to complain.... ;D
|
|
|
Post by th0mas on Feb 27, 2013 21:38:52 GMT
Lol ... Parents..sheesh.
I am also a fan of Iain's and I don't believe the lower x-block was originally intended as a block. His interpretation of control and punch to the back of the head works an absolute treat, especially when you use forward stance in the way it was intended by driving and unbalancing your opponent at the same time.
|
|
|
Post by Gerry Boyce on Mar 29, 2013 12:51:58 GMT
I think of the left hand of either sweeping away the arm I just nearly tore off in preparation for the finishing punch, or grabbing 'whatever' in preparation for the finishing punch. I practice this part of the kata starting with the rising X block acting as a means of dislocating someone's right arm which has just grabbed me somewhere on the upper torso - I then twist it to my right hip (bending the person over), clear what I need to clear in order to finish with the attacking punch.
|
|