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Post by D.Ram on Mar 25, 2013 3:37:58 GMT
Hi! Please forgive my ignorance, but... I'm at 4th kyu, and know my Heian set, and Tekki Shodan. Going through some of the posts, I felt there was some sort of "grouping" of katas under different names...is there some such formal grouping? Please direct me to a good link, or better still, please explain in response :-)
Thanks! Deepak
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Post by jimlukelkc on Mar 25, 2013 10:33:54 GMT
Hi Deepak , not 100% sure what you mean by groupings but after tekki shodan, bassai dai and kanku dai, the kata have a loose grouping by perceived degrees of difficulty. So for instance jion, enpi, sochin would generally be looked on as intermediate kata ( nidan requirement ) whilst others are considered more advanced, such as unsu and gankaku. Wankan and meikyo being looked upon as most advanced although some would disagree with this. Hope this helps.
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Post by D.Ram on Mar 26, 2013 2:59:54 GMT
Thanks, Jim, for your response! This is not exactly what I was looking for, though - for example, in the "General" topics, someone posted about what he called "Junro Katas" - what are these? Trying to quote it herewith! We both passed today emma had a great grading mine was ok. I am still needing to relax more but my bassai dai was decent enough appart from i stomped my foot down on the last double punches but now its more work polishing things up for 12 weeks time and getting into the junro katas
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Post by D.Ram on Mar 26, 2013 3:16:16 GMT
Well, this site (below) classifies Kata as Shitei, Sentei and advanced - much like what Jim already said, except for the Japanese names www.ispra.net/karate/katas-shotokan/And I figured out that Junro is simply a set of relatively new Katas created by one of the masters post-Funakoshi! (I assume this based on this link: www.shotokan.net.nz/Junro_Kata.php )
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Post by garage on Mar 26, 2013 6:12:58 GMT
Ski Kata book groups them as
2 kyu Bassai dai Kanku dai 1 kyu Enpi, Jion 1 dan jitte 2 dan Hangetsu, Tekki 2, Bassai Sho, Gankaku, Kanku Sho 3 dan Sochin, Tekki 3, Chinte, Jiin, Nijushiho 4 Dan Meikyo, Unsu, Wankan 5 Dan Gojushiho Dai/sho
I tend to practice them in groups that are similar; Tekki 1,2,3 - Jion, Jiin Jitte - Unsu Nijushiho - Enpi, Meikyo - Kanku Sho, Bassai Sho etc
Junro where developed by Asai they have higher kicks and flowing round movements the kind of thing you would make up yourself when practicing combinations. He was very flexible and some of the techniques are challenging but, I feel could put you at a strategic disadvantage.
This of course is my opinion, free, worth what you paid for it.
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Post by jimlukelkc on Mar 26, 2013 10:23:50 GMT
I do not personally subscribe to the creation of new kata just for the sake of it. If you want to make up kata then they should be with the intent of passing on a combative principle. As this seems to be covered by existing kata then this seems pointless to me other than an exercise in aesthetics. Existing kata have already been altered to make them appear more athletic and physically challenging but have then got slightly lost in translation. If you want to do this of course it's up to you but I do not think it needs to be part of a grading syllabus. It reduces kata to the same level as a lot of nunchaku demonstrations, baton twirling to impress the crowd.
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Post by nathanso on Mar 27, 2013 6:06:05 GMT
Grouping kata by dan ranking is pretty meaningless, as it is mostly an artificial reflection of an organization's grading syllabus. For example, is Wankan so dificult that a brown belt should wait years before trying to learn it? For that matter, is Jitte so much more difficult than Jion, and is Jiin so much more difficult than Jitte?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2013 7:42:16 GMT
I agree that grouping kata in terms of dan ranking is meaningless. I find that the Jion, jitte and Jion set are easy katas to do. When I practice kata on my own I tend to mix them up randomly. I do find that gankaku and hangetsu have a nice contrast of strong and rooted versus light and flighty. Will have to think hard fore other similarities or contrasts with other kata, .
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Post by elmar on Mar 27, 2013 13:07:55 GMT
By the time you are bucking for nidan, you should know all 26 of the JKA curriculum, I believe, and probably a few "foreign" kata as well (at least a version of sanchin). I had them all by the time I was ikkyu, but then I pursued them from anyone who would teach, and from books, etc. Grouping them for particular ranks is only for the convenience of the examiners, imho.
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Post by garage on Mar 27, 2013 15:40:14 GMT
Whilst I agree that the grouping as per dan ranking meaningless, I find that if you teach the later katas first, you spend a lot of time correcting stances when learning the new kata. If you have gone through the Hieans first it makes it a lot easier to learn the next kata.
Jion follows on from the first 5 as you have already practiced most of the required stances and movements. The more you learn the easier it gets to learn them. I tried starting with chinte and ended by going back and doing some others first as it was easier.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2013 17:27:24 GMT
KUGB
Shodan: bassai dai, kanku dai,empi, Jion or hangetsu Nidan: basai sho,kanku sho, nijishiho, jitte or Tekki Nidan Sandan: sochin unsu, gankaku, chinte,gojushiho sho Yon dan: meikyo, Jion, wankan, Tekki San, gojushiho dai
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Post by dhodge on Mar 30, 2013 9:16:16 GMT
Junro where developed by Asai they have higher kicks and flowing round movements the kind of thing you would make up yourself when practicing combinations. He was very flexible and some of the techniques are challenging but, I feel could put you at a strategic disadvantage. This of course is my opinion, free, worth what you paid for it. I disagree on the disadvantage part on applying the Junro's in a real fight. They make me more adaptable as with Hiean and other Traditional Kata's. Some practitioners say Karate was rounded but have been straightened over time (Scott Langley article in Shotokan Way. Then again as a novice i am still reading researching and open minded to training where I wont dismiss something. Asai Sensei also promoted the Koten kata's these are different but in my experience make you think as well.
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Post by garage on Mar 30, 2013 11:06:40 GMT
Hi Derek, I would consider in a real fight getting out of a car instead of running them over a strategic disadvantage. As a practicing coward I want it over as quickly as possible.
Shotokan since the first tounament in the late 50's is a bit of a sport. I believe Asai won kumite in 1960? So it was meant to be forged on the battle field so where is the test enviroment other than a tournament?
I would stand in a dojo and spar not bother with a guard because it is a fixed distance, where it can change in an instant and not stop it is completely different.
So Gankaku won't be standing on one leg, not laying on the floor in unsu, dirty and puts my head near their feet, Head kicks exposes groin and there is only one foot left. Do not like turning my back.
I practice as much as I can, so I don't think at the wrong time.
I am not disagreeing, if there was someone near, I would learn any kata they are prepared to share.
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Mar 30, 2013 12:29:36 GMT
Hi Bert
Where in the UK are you?
Best Regards Allan
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Post by D.Ram on Apr 6, 2013 9:39:37 GMT
Katas are taught at specific kyu's / dan's because of "some" reasoning, I assume? So many things in Karate, we discover only as we progress step by step...perhaps the reasoning for segregation of katas by grades is simply not so evident, but yet, very much required? I have my Kanazawa kata book, but use it to learn those katas which are required for my grade; other katas, I just glance through to satisfy my curiosity I was watching Ian Abernethy's version of Tekki Shodan (link below) - the steps are approximately the same, but the hand-movements are quite significantly different from the SKI version! Just wondering - is this Kata at least similarly practiced within other Shotokan brances? Abernethy version: www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHaivlqvNA4SKI version: www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCq_VbnS5Fk
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Post by malk103 on Apr 6, 2013 10:17:03 GMT
Iain uses a different style to Shotokan but mentions Shotokan often so is well aware of the differences. Sensei Kanazawa is Shotokan and uses a much deeper stance as does Sensei Ohta in this link: www.youtube.com/watch?v=6I2Q5TVJMLwIain has taken Kata to the next level - after learning the moves, speed, power of a Kata you can then perform it properly, a lot of Karateka leave it as that and move on. Bunkai is then looking at applications and principles of the Kata and using these to expand upon those applications. Ultimately you can progress to using these applications in Kumite drills, going further you can adjust these to suit your size or strengths or to counter slightly different attacks. Most people believe that Kata was formed to remember these drills and to help you explore the principles held within. You should ideally learn the earlier ones in order and then progress steadily, you will probably find that you will always keep learning the Kata, even after it looks perfect!
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Post by th0mas on Apr 6, 2013 11:29:47 GMT
Hi Deepak
Just to add what Mel said, Iain's original karate style was Wado. Which is similar to shotokan, and in terms of kata application non-distinguishable in most cases.
You need to follow the correct form for you organisation if you wish to pass your gradings... however, other than that, I wouldn't worry, as in Tekki /Nihanchi's case the application/ fighting principles are nearly the same.. and in fact the individual hand motions are all very similar in function but the motions that make up the form have just been broken up in slightly different ways for different styles.
In terms of the order we learn kata, I wrote about this subject (well essentially, the thread was on Advanced kata) on Iain's forum a couple of weeks ago... which I will repeat here
Cheers
Tom
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