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Post by jimlukelkc on Apr 29, 2013 12:45:48 GMT
Just had a look on Practical Karate forum and one of the members was suggesting that although they attend courses for kata bunkai, they rarely get the chance to practice in their own clubs. The suggestion was the organisation of a kata study group in which anyone who had ideas to contribute could organise a course and everyone on the forum would be free to attend. I think this is a great idea in principle but not so easy to organise as we are so wide-spread. Anyone any thoughts to how this could be achieved? perhaps localised courses then we could compare and publish notes on OSS ?
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Post by kensei on Apr 29, 2013 12:59:19 GMT
Just had a look on Practical Karate forum and one of the members was suggesting that although they attend courses for kata bunkai, they rarely get the chance to practice in their own clubs. The suggestion was the organisation of a kata study group in which anyone who had ideas to contribute could organise a course and everyone on the forum would be free to attend. I think this is a great idea in principle but not so easy to organise as we are so wide-spread. Anyone any thoughts to how this could be achieved? perhaps localised courses then we could compare and publish notes on OSS ? Its a great idea, but we would have a hard time doing it. I think we now have members from every continent you can name and I dont see us all flying out for a quick week end in the UK or Australia or something like that. Perhaps technology holds the answer?
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Post by jimlukelkc on Apr 29, 2013 17:54:23 GMT
Technology? Arrggh!
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Post by D.Ram on May 6, 2013 9:29:04 GMT
Sorry to branch out, but I'm looking for good videos / even text pages, which provide a good idea about Bunkai in a consistent manner for all Shotokan katas.
For example, I saw a Nakayama video about Tekki Shodan video, but what I'm really looking for was the last 30 secs of the 8 minute demo!
A crisp, "actual-people-attacking and kata-man defending" 1-2 minute video would be ideal...
Thanks!
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Post by malk103 on May 6, 2013 11:40:12 GMT
Search for John Burke and Iain Abernethey. Both post videos of Bunkai.
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Post by th0mas on May 7, 2013 15:26:38 GMT
Hi Deepak
Buy all of Ian's early videos covering the Heians/Pinans Tekki, Bassai Dai etc.. Well worth it, He covers both the wado and Shotokan variants of these katas...
Iain's later Heian and tekki videos are more about flow drills and applying the applications in an unscripted way, which although great and essential if you are to progress, may be a step too far for you at this stage, if you are expecting "nakayama style" bunkai stuff...
My only worry is that if you are expecting something like the Nakayama Video you may be disappointed. Mainly because the Nakayama video stuff for Bunkai interpretation isn't really very good, and yet sadly it is still held up as an exemplar...
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Post by malk103 on May 7, 2013 21:06:01 GMT
The basic bunkai is okay to drill for beginners and maybe intermediate Kyu but I think around Brown belt level students should start to venture out and explore. I tried for ages to "find" the truth or to download/read/watch the "real" applications but then came to the conclusion that it was part of my journey, I had been shown how-to, now it was up to me to discover. Iain and John Burke are excellent examples of Sensei showing the way, some may call them "alternative to the norm", others tend point to their work as the proper Karate but everything you experience should be seen as correct - just not the only method. Nakayama missed a great trick in not showing anything more than basics in his videos, I can't believe that the JKA didn't know anything else, maybe they just decided that everyone should stick to basics first.
I have heard recently of a senior Dan grade failing because he didn't apply the "correct" application to a Kata, even though his example was more fitting for his size/age/height?
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Post by nathanso on May 7, 2013 23:18:10 GMT
Nakayama missed a great trick in not showing anything more than basics in his videos, I can't believe that the JKA didn't know anything else, maybe they just decided that everyone should stick to basics first. IMO, the problem of kata being taught as a form-based martial dance rather than as a template for SD can be traced back to Funakoshi. In an interview a number of years ago in SKM, Harada said that GF told them that kata was important but never told them why. The implication is obvious- they were never shown that anything useful can be learned from kata. That, combined with the post-Funakoshi emphasis of the JKA on tournaments, resulted in the emphasis on form and the use of long-distance kumite techniques to illustrate kata applications.
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Post by D.Ram on May 10, 2013 6:10:25 GMT
My only worry is that if you are expecting something like the Nakayama Video you may be disappointed. Mainly because the Nakayama video stuff for Bunkai interpretation isn't really very good, and yet sadly it is still held up as an exemplar... I am not implying that Nakayama is great vs. others. My aim was to see the most basic bunkai for each kata - the most obvious and "first" application for each move. It stems from an open question I have about why some of the moves are slow - for example in H.Yondan, why is the first movement slow? Much later in the kata, on the way back, there's an "obvious" slow movement where you try to remove a neck-hold - but for some of the other slow movements, I'm unable to decipher the reason...
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Post by th0mas on May 10, 2013 9:47:30 GMT
Hi Deepak One of the common views (and mine also) is that slow movements in kata denote particular applications that are not necessarily performed at full speed but rather require some more complex body mechanic or application of strength to make it work. There may also be a safety issue here as well. So when practicing the application in pairs it should be performed at a slower pace such that you don't injure your training partner.
Just to clarify my "full speed" point. I don't mean the application should be performed slowly in "real life" but speed is not the most important element of the application.
So for some examples (and there is by no means a consensus on my interpretations of the bunkai) :
The first time you see a slowly performed technique in the heian kata's is in Heian Sandan as you step up with your fists on your hips. This can be interpreted as a neck/cross-buttock throw that if performed at speed it likely to break your training partners neck...!
In Heian Godan the third move is performed slowly as you stand up and face in the opposite direction. My favourite interpretation of that bunkai is a set-up for a basic choke. However it requires you to get the forearm across your opponents throat correctly and that can require adjustment in the heat of a fight. Once the choke is on, you can then apply strength to choke him out. Now when doing this in anger you don't perform is slowly, it is done at speed and can be very effective in my experience, but it is important to recognize that the technique has to be precise else your opponent will escape..
In Heian Yondan, my interpretation of the slow movements at the beginning are to do with complex timing. It is an arm capture that leads onto an arm-lock and a finishing punch to the back of the neck (warning: this is much more complicated to explain in words than to show).
Think of both the slow movement to the left and the slow movement to the right as a single application. you catch your opponents leading arm (in the case of the kata example, his right arm) on your right forearm, your left hand supports and guides the opponents arm. you "pin the elbow to the sky" and then drag and twist the arm to your right side (at which point your left hand has applied pressure on your opponents elbow and your right hand his holding his wrist to your side). This all requires a body shift to your left and then to your right to ensure you apply full body mechanics to the technique. This leads nicely on to the "x-block" which is actually a hold down and punch to the back of your opponents neck...
Phew... One of these days I will get a video camera to the dojo and show what I mean...
Cheers
Tom
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Post by jimlukelkc on May 10, 2013 12:31:16 GMT
Hi Deepak, hope this does not come over as condescending, if you are already aware of this , forgive me but I don't know your current level of training. As a rule of thumb, slow movements indicate a need to exercise precision or a fine motor skill so that would be along the lines of an arm/wrist lock or striking a vital point. Other things to consider are you are always facing your opponent. Turning 90 degrees ( as with the start of the heian kata ) indicates the angle you should be in relation to your opponent. Often the placement of your technique will show where to strike on your opponent. This is best explained with nami-geashi in tekki where the foot comes up to the inside of your knee. Oh and a jump indicates a throw. Hope this helps and did not sound patronising. To answer your other question, static stretches are done slowly in place. They have been shown to be less than helpful in developing your kicks. Dynamic stretching for example could be swinging your leg up in front and to the side or performing the kick without kime.
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Post by D.Ram on May 22, 2013 6:11:55 GMT
Hi Jim, I'm at San-Kyu, so have tons and tons to learn All words are welcome! Honestly, I did not understand much of what you said... "Often the placement of your technique will show where to strike on your opponent" - this seems obvious - are you saying that if I punch an oi-zuki, it indicates where my opponent is? Or am I missing something? My generic question was - why are some movements slow - in terms of bunkai, does the slowness have any meaning? I believe you are saying that the slowness is to ensure correctness - right? Not too convinced! Noted and understood your point about static/dynamic stretches - thanks!
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Post by jimlukelkc on May 22, 2013 8:50:11 GMT
Hi Deepak, sorry if my explanation was a little confusing. Slow performance of a technique in kata indicates several things but first and foremost it is saying Pay Attention! It would indicate either that precision is required or accuracy, or that when practicing with a partner be careful, these techniques are dangerous! Kata are meant to be drilled with a partner but when performed as a solo drill you need a point of reference so when at the beginning of say heian sandan you turn 90 degrees to the left, this means you should move 90 degrees to an opponent whom you were initially facing. I realise that tekki kata is way above what you are currently learning but if you google "returning wave kick " you will see that the foot of the kicker is brought up to touch the inside of his own opposite knee and rather than this being utilised as a block it is merely to indicate where on your opponent should be kicked. So to recap; if you practice kata as a solo drill then you need a way of indicating where the opponent is. The natural assumption must be that you would mostly be facing your attacker/aggressor so it follows that you are not blocking an attack from the side. A jump is a way of indicating the lift you need to generate when performing a throw. The end position of any technique is not the technique. All the action in between is the technique, so if you are performing say soto-uke, then the hikite hand might be the parrry/grab/control and the "blocking hand " performs the strike. The end position is showing the ideal position you should end up in if all goes according to plan. Hope this has clarified my earlier ramblings somewhat but please ask again if not. I would also echo previous advice to view Iain Abernethy`s videos and his articles for further clarification. For instance he shows how tate-shuto is used as a datum point for a follow-up strike, by grabbing the opponent and holding whilst hitting.
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Post by D.Ram on May 22, 2013 11:16:42 GMT
Jim, now I completely disagree! First, why are you assuming that kata partner-work involves just one opponent? In even the most basis katas like Heian Shodan, after the first two moves, you turn 180 degrees - is it not easier to imagine a second opponent there? Second, Tekki Shodan is actually in the syllabus of Yon Kyu (I'm currently at Brown-3), so I know it :-) [Or at least I know the sequence of moves - I am still absorbing the levels of meaning!] - In Tekki Shodan, the move you refer to, I had assumed that the basic Bunkai was indeed a block of a kick! I refer back to my Youtube video from Nakayama Sensei - where at the end of the video you have a 15-20 second clip of Kanazawa sensei getting attacked by 4-5 members, and one of the maegeri's is blocked by the knee-touch movement you mentioned.
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Post by Bob Davis on May 22, 2013 11:36:30 GMT
In that case the question you need to ask yourself is what that "second opponent" is doing behind you waiting patiently for you to deal with his partner, does that seem very likely (just saying
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Post by jimlukelkc on May 22, 2013 13:11:48 GMT
You are of course entitled to disagree; that is the basis of good debate, however as Bob has said the scenario you depict is unrealistic. Do you believe that you are turning towards your attacker who has attempted to punch or kick you from the side? What was his target? And then the protagonist from the other side ( Who is now behind you) waits patiently whilst you dispatch attacker no.1 before launching his attack which as you cant see it you are obviously "sensing" somehow. If you are surrounded by 4-5 opponents you are going to get a kicking I dont care who you are and they wont wait patiently , they will all pile in at once. Karate is most effective when used against an unskilled opponent, thats a civilian with little or no martial arts training. You will not be attacked mae-geri in fact you are only ever likely to be kicked if you are on the deck. I am not assuming that you will only be attacked by one person but the kata attempts to teach us that the odds of you dispatching 2 attackers are poor. Not impossible, but poor and that your initial pre-emptive strike is all important. Lastly, tekki is a grappling kata, everything contained within it is designed to work at close quarters. It is a nasty, down-and-dirty set of underhand techniques designed to hospitalise your opponent at the least and should be drilled as such. In your search for bunkai answers Deepak you will find it easier to separate the wheat from the chaff if you first discard all offerings that have you surounded by 5 opponents attacking you from kumite distance using karate techniques. Over the years I have learned to keep an open mind but question everything so congratulations! You are making important steps forward.
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Post by th0mas on May 22, 2013 15:37:29 GMT
Hi Deepak
Just to add weight (and lets be honest there is enough of it with Bob, Jim and me in the conversation....maybe girth is a better word as weight implies knowledge and experience and I'm pretty sure the latter implies we have little of the former.. :-) ) to what has already been said.
Kanazawa's video and others like it you see on you tube, were really only ever done to be used as demonstrations. They are not realistic representations of the bunkai demonstrated in the solo kata. This is also true for competition bunkai. It is really spectacular and a massive crowd pleaser, but it is not practical at all.
The only other thing to add to what Jim has said is to be aware of the "fighting distance". Real fighting is done at close range (head butting distance to be brutal about it). The fighting applications, for the most part, are designed with this in mind. If you shift you perspective from the normal Shotokan long range (as seen in kanazawa's video footage) to close range you will also see a change on how stances play a role in close range fighting. More about using your weight to unbalance and control you opponent than for tai-sabaki or manuvering as seen in normal dojo sparring.
Hope that helps
Cheers
Tom
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2013 15:46:25 GMT
In even the most basis katas like Heian Shodan, after the first two moves, you turn 180 degrees - is it not easier to imagine a second opponent there? Ah yes, the so called "Spiderman Bunkai" where your Spidey Sense tingles and you magically "sense" someone directly behind you, and turn to face them, somehow performing the correct "block" at the exact moment they attack with a technique you couldn't see as you where facing the other way.
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Post by Allan Shepherd on May 22, 2013 17:33:03 GMT
May I respectfully suggest that before you "learn" a lot of bunkai or is it bunkum!! learn the variations of each kata ie from the normal omote we have ura, ura go etc which actually allow you to "view" your opponents attack because you have adjusted your maii from the normal omote and ura (left/right or right/left) when doing the kata.
Best Regards Allan
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Post by th0mas on May 22, 2013 17:58:45 GMT
Hi Allan
Are you suggesting that by practicing your kata ura etc (mirrored and backwards) that the concept of defending against opponents attacking from the four corners of the compass becomes a valid interpretation of kata bunkai?
Cheers
Tom
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Post by Allan Shepherd on May 22, 2013 20:27:33 GMT
Hi Tom
No, kata direction and kata bunkai are obviously two distinct opposites of a spectrum. What I am saying is that within the various directions you have the TIME element coupled with the MAII element to affect your own interpretation of bunkai. We have two toolboxes that need to be intergrated.
For example Kihon Kata, in omote we turn to the left step forward block and step forward and counter SHORTENING our MAII (by allowing opponent into our personal space since we are heading towards each other) and having less TIME to counter. In reality if we step back and block we are maintaining or increasing (by using yori ashi) our MAII giving us greater TIME to counter. The counter can now be either stepping forward into attack as per omote or stepping back taking the opponent with us.
Hope the above explains it better, if not try both scenario's with a partner who does mae geri for example.
Best Regards Allan
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Post by D.Ram on May 23, 2013 8:56:09 GMT
This discussion was very enlightening! Thanks Jim, Tom, Allan, Bob, for your insights! One parting note - I was once sparring with two partners, and was surprised to see the hesitation of one member to attack while I was busy defending the other - I found that each of them uncontrollably waited till I was ready for them! Of course, as suggested, one would not be so lucky in a real fight
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Post by th0mas on May 23, 2013 10:24:00 GMT
Hi all
Having re-read some of the stuff, I and others have put forward, it is worth just clarifying something and giving a bit of an example.
Although I have been banging on about changing the range of engagement when considering Bunkai study, I want to be clear that this is more a reaction to the over-focus on long range fighting we traditionally see in most dojos to the detriment of everything else.
Long range applications and tatics are still extremely valid in real fight senarios, but not for the 1-against-1 duel-esque sparring reasons we see in dojo's.
In real situations it is rarely a 1-on-1 situation, usually either party (or both) is made up of a group of friends, partners in crime etc. Fixating on a single individual in a group fight is quite dangerous and it is important, especially if there is space, to keep moving and control your ranges and try and funnel your opponents to give you a chance at effective engagement.
As a good example i will summarise an experience that Iain Abernethy mentioned in the past.
Iain was running a training session with a mixed bag of students, where most were older experienced Martial artists, but there were a few younger students (teenagers etc) as well. He was running a brief sparring exercise of 1 against many and divided the groups up into experienced and inexperienced. What was interesting was that the experienced martial artist, in all cases when facing against 2+ opponents, relatively quickly would succumb to a kicking, whilst the younger group often would escape with less injury.
His conclusion was that the experienced Martial Artists actually like to fight (they do it as a hobby) and try and mix it against multiple opponents, which invariably results in getting battered. The younger group, expressing more fear, spent the majority of their time maneuvering and avoiding rather than mixing it up and consequently were able to avoid getting cornered and piled on.
This is an interesting lesson for practical self-protection as in most cases you will be dealing with multiple potential opponents. The ability to practice tactics that support long range applications and the ability to control your space (through situational awareness, maneuvering, using the attacking crowd to get positional advantage, human shields etc) is something worth investigating.
It is something we do quite often in our dojo.
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Post by garage on May 23, 2013 13:18:18 GMT
I think we have forgotten our group theory. They do not all attack with equal weighting. There is a group dynamic. There has to be some sort of method or they fall over each other.
Normally there is a big mouth who runs the show. If you stop the mouth you achieve a morale drop for the group and you may make a headless chicken.
Second there is a soldier who is normally big and does what the mouth incites him to do. This would be the second choice, again a good morale dropper. Then there are a lot of hangers on that will only do something if they think they can do it safely with out being hurt. Take out the ringleader and a lot of people won't join in.
It is difficult when you feel there is no second chance, the blackness closes in and you get tunnel vision. Just a passing observation
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Post by jimlukelkc on May 23, 2013 13:47:31 GMT
In the assassination of Julius Caesar it was reported that so frenzied was the attack and so many were eager put the knife in that several of them were wounded by each others weapons. A mob or group such as that takes their direction from the most decisive member of the group. We use group attacks in class and as stated above the smaller less experienced ones tend to make a run for it leaving the group to chase behind.
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Post by malk103 on May 24, 2013 22:56:12 GMT
This discussion was very enlightening! Thanks Jim, Tom, Allan, Bob, for your insights! One parting note - I was once sparring with two partners, and was surprised to see the hesitation of one member to attack while I was busy defending the other - I found that each of them uncontrollably waited till I was ready for them! Of course, as suggested, one would not be so lucky in a real fight If sparring with 2 then I find that I like to keep them both in sight, I will even leap to a different position while striking or blocking one of them, just to put myself in a better position. Trying to match a block or response that also moves you away from the other attacker is also key. But as you say in reality who knows what chaos will occur. An earlier point about Kata drills with multiple attackers, it's okay for drills but I like to think of a 90 degree turn as you moving away from their front or shifting to their side, a 180 degree turn should be seen as a throw. When you do a sequence or move on one side and then the next is purely to show the attack/defence/response on both sides, it's also possible to show different techniques to match you Right/left handedness. But that could also be over thinking it as the Heian Kata were also formed for exercise and to finish on the starting point.... The good thing about Karate is you can have it as what you want it to be. You may also come back to it later and think something else, or maybe it's just a good exercise. The thinking journey is what keeps your mind alive while your body aches from training! ;D
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Post by garage on May 25, 2013 2:55:14 GMT
When doing kata I always look to the left before turning to the right and vice versa. This probably makes it wrong but it means I get a habit of seeing 360 degrees and what is going on around me.
This what makes it more than a sport, dealing with practical chaos.
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