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Post by th0mas on May 20, 2013 11:15:13 GMT
Whilst reading another topic I was wondering what original source kata ITosu used to develop the Heian/Pinan series. I thought this might be an interesting topic to discuss and get a bit of a debate going. However before we can start I need to lay down some assumptions I am making about the Heian/Pinan series. - The Heians were designed by Itosu for the purposes of providing a graduated series of kata to aid the student in leaning a complete set of fighting-for-self-protection principles and strategies.
- Itosu "borrowed" key applications and strategies from older sets of kata and re-purposed them to fit the themes he wished to develop in the Heians.
- The Heian katas are not about performance and development of good form, although practicing kata will develop "muscle memory" during solo practice and provide a framework for visualistion training.
- The Heian kata are about teaching fighting principles and strategies with sets of example applications that highlight particular concepts.
- The order the kata is performed, as per the original Pinan order (Pinan Shodan = Heian Nidan, Pinan Nidan = Heian Shodan), relates to the natural progression of a fight. Heian Nidan deals with the initial clash of arms, Heian Shodan, grab distance (including locks and takedowns) and Heian Sandan throws etc. Yondan and godan then show more advanced progression of applications and flows.
(just a brief note... I have also assumed that Channan is an early working title for the Pinan Kata's and not an original souce kata in the strictest definition) Ok, just to to kick things off... My starter for 10 is that source katas for the heians are Kenku-dai, Bassai Dai and Gankaku (or their shorin pre-cursers (Kushanku, Passai, Chinto) and a bit of Jion. All the most likely applications interpretations for the 5 Heian Kata's are covered in these four kata's (to be honest this is based on my exhaustive research of the last 20 minutes it took me to write this post :-)) ... I will follow this up later with a breakdown of the applications to illustrate my argument (work and home commitments considered).
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Post by jimlukelkc on May 20, 2013 13:56:30 GMT
Your brief note Tom ? You say you have assumed that Channan is an early working tile for pinan? Is this an assumption or something you have evidence for. I ask because during my research it would seem that most opinions are that this was a form of chuan-fa that the Okinawans adapted. The circular moves were for the most part removed and emphasis put on linear movements. This can be seen to be typified by heian shodan/pinan nidan with the inclusion of oi-tsuki, used to literally knock a man off his feet by driving forward. I have no references for you to back this up but several of the sources I used put this forward.
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Post by th0mas on May 20, 2013 14:52:27 GMT
Hi Jim
You raise a good point.
It is an assumption on my part, mainly to side-step the Channan debate so that it doesn't get in the way of looking at the other katas.
Some authors seem to suggest that it is the origin for the heian/pinans, others that it is completely different, but all (of the sources I have had access to) suggest that the original kata form is lost.
It was for this last reason that I didn't really want to bring it into the discussion... there are a lot of "fake" versions of the channan kata on YouTube, made up by practitioners who have tried to derive the original form by taking references from the Pinan's and Chuan-fa.
In my mind I wanted to focus on looking at the functions of the source kata's and mapping them to the Pinan/Heian kata series. This would be difficult for the Channan kata if we don't have an authentic form to refer to...
On the other hand your oi-tsuki functional reference is absolutely relevant. Personally it is my preferred application for this technique.
Cheers
Tom
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Post by jimlukelkc on May 21, 2013 9:11:48 GMT
Ok, to the list of kata from which the heians are derived I would add tekki. I think there is plenty of evidence that Itosu modified tekki sho and nidan and developed sandan ( this is referenced by both Funakoshi and Mabuni seperately ) and examination of the kata shows some of the techniques included ( tate-shuto, fumikomi etc..) I absolutely agree about the initial heians being all about the progression of a fight and yon and godan about more advanced implications; this can be implied from the inclusion of slowly performed techniques to indicate precision and accuracy. If we view kata as having just one or two functions I think we do a disservice to men like Mabuni and Itosu however as they are more than just mnemonic or a tool to drill form. They show the combative function of everything from stance to footwork to shifting weight and the importance of the embusen. Those who take the view that Itosu formulated the heian for teaching to children are missing the point . They already existed and as long as the bunkai/oyo were not taught alongside they were a sanitised but useful teaching tool. Unfortunately this was not upgraded for teaching to adults and after a while, the importance of that was forgotten. It is this obsession with the perfection of form that has taken over of late and without direction it is meaningless; we just end up with something that is all style and no substance. I could go on but please, someone else jump in!
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Post by garage on May 21, 2013 9:21:14 GMT
I always felt it was like Kanku Dai broken up into bits. It much harder to start with Kanku Dai from scratch as I tried this to save time when I just wanted someone to learn quickly.
I know the story of the chinese guy washed up on the shores of Okinanwa as to be the origin of Kanku Dai it all gets a bit wooley depending on what you read.
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Post by th0mas on May 21, 2013 11:06:24 GMT
Hi Jim
There are a number of interesting themes that you cover in your post that touch on some current theories on the rationale for certain kata types and the meta-structure for the heians.
A theory I like is that when Itosu was building and creating his " teaching system" or the Pinan kata series, where he borrowed particular applications from kata such as Bassai (Passai) or Kenkudai (Kushanku) he redeveloped those original katas and created the "sho" forms to include alternative application options to replace the ones he had borrowed. Maybe this was to make a more consistent series of kata's that follow a Pinan Foundation followed by more advanced katas once the foundation has been learnt (this is not dissimilar to the order we practice katas in a number of different karate styles nowadays, which gives some credence to this view) so we have Bassai sho and Kenkusho,
...now the logical follow-on from this is that he then continued this approach to enhance the other older kata's to include alternative applications... which lead to Tekki Nidan and Sandan, Gojushiho-sho etc. It may be that the development of the Pinans preceded this behavour or followed it or was part of a more holistic reassessment of traditional kata teaching methods across the board..at this stage I don't have the historical information to to back this theory, but it does seem logical to my mind.
I am not sure about the Tekki's in the Pinan/Heian Series. I personally think Tekki is a foundation kata in it's own right and it seems to me that Itosu was trying to create a second series like the Pinans.
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Post by jimlukelkc on May 21, 2013 11:18:02 GMT
"I am not sure about the Tekki's in the Pinan/Heian Series. I personally think Tekki is a foundation kata in it's own right and it seems to me that Itosu was trying to create a second series like the Pinans"
I absolutely agree that Tekki is a stand alone kata but the same can be said of Kushanku and there is as you pointed out a sho version of that. My personal belief is that itosu felt that these few kata represented a comprehensive combative system and he expanded them whilst keeping their core lessons intact.
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Post by th0mas on May 21, 2013 11:18:55 GMT
I always felt it was like Kanku Dai broken up into bits. It much harder to start with Kanku Dai from scratch as I tried this to save time when I just wanted someone to learn quickly. I know the story of the chinese guy washed up on the shores of Okinanwa as to be the origin of Kanku Dai it all gets a bit wooley depending on what you read. Hi Bert You make a good point. I believe that developing fundamental skills in preparation for learning more advanced fighting applications was one of the driving principles behind the design of the Pinan/Heian katas. If you look at the Heians, the first three - Shodan, Nidan and Sandan - although they have some applications seen in the older kata's they are in the majority showing applications and techniques that don't appear in Kenkudai, Bassai, Jion Gankaku etc, certainly not structured in the same way or in the same order at least. This is in-contrast with yondan and Godan, that seem to copy verbatum (or near as damnit) a lot of their applications from the older kata's. These kata's seem to flow more and appear to have longer strings of related techniques (certainly in terms of logical applications anyway) My current thinking is that the first three were all about teaching some basic or fundamental fighting skills prior to tackling more complex fighting applications and strategies in Yondan and godan. Cheers Tom
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Post by th0mas on May 21, 2013 11:24:39 GMT
"I am not sure about the Tekki's in the Pinan/Heian Series. I personally think Tekki is a foundation kata in it's own right and it seems to me that Itosu was trying to create a second series like the Pinans" I absolutely agree that Tekki is a stand alone kata but the same can be said of Kushanku and there is as you pointed out a sho version of that. My personal belief is that itosu felt that these few kata represented a comprehensive combative system and he expanded them whilst keeping their core lessons intact. You may be right, it is rather difficult through the fog of time to truely understand what Itosu was thinking. It is all a bit confused.. It just occured to me when looking at the Heians that he was not just happy to create one alternative to Tekki but two! So maybe there was a logical procession with these kata's as well?
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Post by elmar on May 25, 2013 11:33:26 GMT
...Some authors seem to suggest that it is the origin for the heian/pinans, others that it is completely different, but all (of the sources I have had access to) suggest that the original kata form is lost. Calling me <grin> ? bookstore.trafford.com/Products/SKU-000147097/Channan.aspxPersonally I also agree that the Tekki series are a stand alone foundation in and of themselves.
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Post by th0mas on May 25, 2013 15:06:24 GMT
Lol.. there is nothing new in this world Elmar, just repackaging of older ideas :-)
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