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Post by Bob Davis on Oct 23, 2013 13:57:17 GMT
I'm just basing this on a video clip I was watching recently of US police training regarding using a gun against an attacker armed with a knife to which their response mostly seemed to be "I would just shoot them" (see the clip for how well that worked out ) It then struck me that I'd heard a similar attitude amongst the participants of a number of women's self protection sessions I'd assisted at (under a female instructor of my acquaintance). There was a lot of "I'd just kick/knee him in the groin" (from the group not the instructor) as the one and only required response for all situations. My argument to them was, as the only male representative in the room, that whilst the groin was a good target (and if you have a clear and accurate chance then take it) that there isn't a man in the world who isn't constantly aware of this vulnerability and who, in the event of an attack, would be likely to give them an easy target. I suggested that a good alternative to consider as a first response would be to go for the eyes, you don't need to be strong, or skilled and a finger or thumb in the eye is a fairly good deterrent. Even if do don't connect the natural human flinch reflex at any threat to the eyes may buy you space to make an escape (or even allow that much favoured "kick to the groin"). Anyway, as a starting point does anybody have any thoughts or am I just barking up the wrong tree?
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Post by jimlukelkc on Oct 23, 2013 15:57:08 GMT
Depends how you are attacking the eyes, I would say. A splayed four-finger jab towards the eyes requires less accuracy than say nihon nukite, or slamming the palm into the side of the head and letting the thumb hook in.I dont think I would depend on either one really, unless using them as a distraction to set him up for a finisher. As for groin strikes, whilst being hit in the nads is very upsetting, the pain often takes a while to build to its full, savage, effect. I would close him down with something else and then if it presented itself as a target, well, it would be rude not to !
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Post by Bob Davis on Oct 23, 2013 17:18:46 GMT
Remember Jim that we are talking about responses to an attack from a far stronger opponent rather than a fight as such so the splayed hand or general clawing or finger poking is more likely I'd guess (along with biting anything within reach). I agree that (from personal experience ) that whilst a groin strike is unpleasant and ultimately very painful that it can also be a slow builder rather than the instant finisher some people think it is and a strong opponent could do a lot of damage in the time it takes to (excuse the pun ) kick in.
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Post by garage on Oct 23, 2013 18:44:16 GMT
I can honestly say you can kick me in the nuts as hard as you like, the face isn't bothered. I have often done this in demonstrations to the point of being lifted up as I am kicked.
I cold weather you stand even less chance.
The kick needs to go at an angle then the pain will go on quickly, how is anyone going to practice this? There are some nerve endings but the kick needs to go more downwards to hit them. Again how do you practice hitting them?
Attacking the eyes, a lot of people find the idea disgusting so hold back. So you end up drilling so they can be done without thinking, then someone does a joke attack that gets an unfunny response.
I guess there is no right answer because you have nowhere to try this stuff out.
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Post by Paul Bedard on Oct 24, 2013 4:07:30 GMT
I`m with Bob on the fact that most men automatically defend the groin. My early bicycles taught me to squeeze the inside thighs together to protect the groin. If you can get in close enough eyes are a harder target to defend, however the attacker has to have the mental state to do serious damage to another human being. In self defence classes, I taught holding ignition keys between the first & middle finger & stabbing this into the eyeball. Lets say a man is trying to choke you, both his hands are busy, but he can protect his groin. Raking across his eyes or jabbing your thumbs into his eye sockets will get a response. Actually I teach this as an idea for the end of Heian Yondan, after the third moroto uke, when we switch to forward stance & both hands come up to face level to do the knee strike. Use both hands to drive your thumbs in his eyes as your grabbing his head for the knee strike.
Paul B
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Post by garage on Oct 24, 2013 11:42:31 GMT
I think Heian Shodan breaking the grip and running, Sandan has another grip break. If you allow somebody to get this close to you who is much larger, you are starting to struggle.
I also worry that somebody will read this kind of advice and gouge someone's eyes out. Perhaps their girlfriend or a complete stranger, which if you type this into google you find a number of people have done so.
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Post by crashuk on Aug 18, 2014 6:52:42 GMT
Good side kick to the knees and get a way or a open hand hit to face.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2014 8:42:45 GMT
First off let me point out I am not a Shotokan instructor, so if you wish to delete the post please do as I am aware this is the Instructors thread.
I have taught SD in the past so thought I would share my thoughts.
I have heard a lot of anecdotal evidence that people with lots of adrenalin/alcohol or drugs in their system can be kicked in the groin and they won't feel anything. There are quite a few stories, but again they are this is only anecdotal evidence, so I have no personal proof of this, but it may be something to bear in mind.
As for the eyes, as we know when under stress you lose your fine motor skills, trying to hit such a small target under stress I would suggest is quite tricky. Also, if you stick your thumb into your own eye socket you can get it to the first knuckle quite easily, so you are really going to have to jam your digit in a hell of a long way to get any result, and I think the some people can be pretty squeamish so it's one thing to say you'd do it and another in practice.
Personally as teach women to attack the most vulnerable part of the body, the throat/neck. You can strike with hiraken or full fist, or with practice you can grab the throat getting your thumb behind the windpipe.
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Post by jimlukelkc on Aug 19, 2014 14:55:21 GMT
As a target I would have to agree that the neck is an easier target to hit. It is difficult to defend and the effects of a relatively light blow can be very effective. I would not dismiss the groin as a target, just it is more effective as a finisher really. We practice eye strikes with light taps to the forehead for accuracy and grab the belt for groin strikes, so it is possible to practice with some degree of safety . However it is doubtful many people would be able to bring themselves to actually gouge out an eye bearing in mind how deeply into the socket you have to go; it takes a degree of commitment! As for kata I believe the eye gouge is best demonstrated in the opening moves of Kanku dai. The hooking thumbs and forceful separation of the hands looks spot on.
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Post by Bob Davis on Aug 19, 2014 23:38:48 GMT
I think the effectiveness of going for the eyes is more about the panic and the natural reaction to try and protect them. Whether the person is committed to the gouge or not it takes a braver man than me to ignore it once their fingers/thumbs are (or even looking like they might be) in my eyes, it's just an inbuilt reaction and can buy you room to escape or follow up with something you ARE prepared to do. Remember this question was not about trained fighter against trained fighter, it has to be quick and easy to remember and require no particular skill of strength.
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Post by kensei on Aug 20, 2014 16:35:39 GMT
from personal experience, if you go for the eyes you can stop an attacker most of the time, be it from a slight damage to the eye or just the bloody pain, but you go for the jewels and you probably will tick them off unless you hit them hard enough to send one of them up to the eye level.
I once was kneed really hard in the junk while bouncing and did not feel it till after the juices stopped flowing (Adrenaline that is). The eyes though, even peper spray and its game over for some and a good poke will end it. Problem is trying to nail a person in the eye with out blinding them...but if they attack you they get what is coming to them.
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Post by ruestir on Aug 22, 2014 12:38:04 GMT
I would just say go for the available target. I think attacks to the throat and eyes are great initial moves as they will certainly induce a flinch response in the attacker. That will open up other available targets like the ears, side of the neck or the nose. After their attention is drawn up to protecting their head, attacks to the feet and knees will open up to slow them down so the person can make their escape. My own emphasis is on techniques that can be done with gross motor skill and don't rely on fine motor manipulations.
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