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Post by shinzan on Dec 15, 2010 11:02:19 GMT
I am currently 5th Kyu. I am quite familiar with the 5 heian katas and have briefly delved into tekki shodan. Have I missed somthing or are there no moves in these kata that we step backwards?
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Post by jimlukelkc on Dec 15, 2010 16:58:27 GMT
David, there are few moves in any of the kata where we step backwards and for good reason. We tend to take the kata too literally, as in " we move 90 degrees here so the attack is coming from the side". Also that the kata is a linear progression from beginning to end. That is why when we try to practice with a partner we find the distance wrong. Kata is more like an aide memoir of the originators thoughts and techniques or an encapsulation of his training methods. So if you took as an example, Heian ni-dan, dont think of the first move as stepping to the side. You would be facing your aggressor but the technique requires you to turn sideways once you engage him . Kata is not concerned with blocking then countering. In a real situation this would be suicidal . Therefore whichever way you step is always going to be in order to gain advantage and dominance . This is why very few moves require us to step back and then if they do it is usually in order to break your opponents posture and bring him down ( as in bassai-dai )
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Post by fujicolt on Dec 16, 2010 22:28:38 GMT
David, there are few moves in any of the kata where we step backwards and for good reason. We tend to take the kata too literally, as in " we move 90 degrees here so the attack is coming from the side". Also that the kata is a linear progression from beginning to end. That is why when we try to practice with a partner we find the distance wrong. Kata is more like an aide memoir of the originators thoughts and techniques or an encapsulation of his training methods. So if you took as an example, Heian ni-dan, dont think of the first move as stepping to the side. You would be facing your aggressor but the technique requires you to turn sideways once you engage him . Kata is not concerned with blocking then countering. In a real situation this would be suicidal . Therefore whichever way you step is always going to be in order to gain advantage and dominance . This is why very few moves require us to step back and then if they do it is usually in order to break your opponents posture and bring him down ( as in bassai-dai ) David, take a lot of the information above, so eloquently given by Jim as sound info to rely on BUT not (sorry Jim ) 'as in Bassai Dai'. there are no finite (such as 'as in') Kata applications. there are a vast number of Kata Implications (meaning 'the Kata may imply it might be applied like this... ) but no more. i have but this argument forward for several decades - oft upsetting people set in their ways - with NO ONE giving me any empirical evidence to the contrary. (I know it won't be like that with Jim cos he is one of the deepest thinking Karateka I have met and i know he'll go 'hang on a minute' and then think it through. It is hard to let go of the THIS IS THE APPLICATION and then realise NO ONE REALLY KNOWS the Author of the Kata's real intent. but the joy is - once you grasp it - Kata becomes a glorious source of huge possibilities. Depending on the kata implication you fall upon - there are reverse movement in Basic Kata - opening move of Heian Shodan for example and i'll bet Jim will think it through and give you several versions of it.
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Post by Paul Bedard on Dec 17, 2010 1:29:20 GMT
I totally agree with the implications over applications idea. Having said so, may I now give a challenge. It is easy with heian shodan, but gets more challenging with the higher kata. Go to the very last move in your kata, then do it in reverse, back to the first move. In this fashion you will have ample opportunity to step backwards during technique. Oh, laughing while you stumble is somewhat acceptable. Osu Paul B
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Post by fujicolt on Dec 17, 2010 23:58:55 GMT
'Six times down seven times up' Paul
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Post by Paul Bedard on Dec 18, 2010 3:20:27 GMT
But of course Steve & each time you get up, more determined than the last. `Endeavour` Osu Paul B
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Post by fujicolt on Dec 18, 2010 12:15:33 GMT
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Post by Paul Bedard on Dec 18, 2010 16:21:36 GMT
Oh you poor hard done by people in the U.K.. Snow & ice, trust me whe I tell you that I`m digging greally deep when I say this. `Awwwww` ;D How much snow did you get? Like a whole 2". I`ll fill you in on a Canadian secret `slow down & allow yourself more time to get there`. All kidding aside, when areas that primarily rain get snow, it can be hazardous. The wet & very slippery type of snow, that is also very heavy to work with. So be careful out there. And Steve, you might want to look into one of those `first alert` type of personal safety devices. `I`ve fallen & I cant get up` ;D ;D. `Gotta go now, going to load up the sled, hook up the dogs & head on over to the daughters igloo`. Osu Paul B
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Post by jimlukelkc on Dec 22, 2010 19:53:48 GMT
Steve , having thought it through I can see I should have qualified my statement as one of the interpretations one could infer. I could not agree more that it is impossible for us to state categorically it should be this way or that because we don't know but I like most people tend to choose the explanation that makes most sense to me based upon experience and personal taste. Thanks for the "deep thinking" reference , not sure how true that is, I usually just succeed in confusing myself! and as for my students, well.... One thing I think we can state as being a truism is that any oft repeated technique was probably deemed important by the originator and as such should be paid particular attention to. I am sure we can all think of examples which appear over and over in Shotokan kata, for instance manji-uke and although this is designated even by name as a block surely no-one is seriously suggesting thats what it is?
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Post by fujicolt on Dec 22, 2010 20:21:39 GMT
top points Jim - but you are gonna laugh out loud at this. please allow me to digress about how i worked out an 'implication'...... My Father in law kept sheep on his land and i went along to help him have them sheared. the guy who came to clip the sheep had this way of taking hold of their legs with his arms crossed, lifting them up and turning them so they landed with their back to him and between his legs so he could hold them whilst shearing - it fit Manji Gamae perfectly! Tis true I swear. remind me to show you sometime. and i suppose i'll get a load of innapropriate comments about unatural relationships with sheep now. bet Dod'll be first!
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Post by jimlukelkc on Dec 22, 2010 20:24:45 GMT
I will remind you Steve but its mostly arable round here, dont know where I will get a sheep at short notice!
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Post by fujicolt on Dec 22, 2010 20:45:37 GMT
and so it begins..... why was i dumb enough to post that story? It's been a difficult day!
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