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Post by kensei on Dec 30, 2010 23:18:47 GMT
What do you guys think of calling yourself by a title...like Sensei or Soko? I mean would you ASK someone to call you that like "Okay, My name is SENSEI James"? (of couse not everyone is named James ) For me, if you are not MY sensei or a top instructor in MY organization I MAY call you Mr..(ad name here) or even Sir when talking to you....but if you are not my instructor...or a top level instructor...that is about all you might get...unless you tick me off...then I might think of a few other names and titles I might call you! What does the forum think of using titles and forcing others to use them when refering to you?
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Post by Paul Bedard on Dec 31, 2010 21:26:26 GMT
Well Sensei James, I kind of leave to others to decide what to call me. I know that this kind of leaves the door open, but I do believe that it is disrespectful to force yourself on others. So I introduce myself as Paul Bedard. If others decide to use, Mr. or sensei then of course I take this as a respectful compliment, but I am sure not about to force the issue. Actually I don`t generally even mention that I am an instructor, unless someone else brings up the subject. I know a guy who once had an instructor badge on his Gi. I had asked one of my seniors, when he was going to put one on his. The reply was `when Yaguchi sensei tells me to put one on then I will`, `Yaguchi sensei, has no such badge on his, so neither do I`. Nuff said.. Now having said that, if we are at a social gathering, I might very well call one of my peers sensei, in front of his students, out of respect. Even though we might be on a first name basis when alone. However, just because you are my senior doesn`t automatically ensure that I will call you sensei. Because if you are not my instructor you are not my sensei, if you are not the instructor at any training that I have done, then you are not my sensei. If I haven`t spent a lot of time around you, then you might not even be my sempai. However, if you have obviously earned respect in the martial arts, then I will honour this & at the very least call you Mr., at least when others are around. I firmly believe that respect, is something that is earned & given. Not something that is demanded!!! Osu Paul B
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Post by fujicolt on Dec 31, 2010 22:11:09 GMT
other than in the Dojo I am steve and if i am training under a senior to me in the dojo i am steve. i am british not japanese and i simply abhor the corruption of the Japanese ettiquette you so often see. there is a time and a place
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Post by kensei on Jan 1, 2011 2:33:33 GMT
The reason I brought it up is a gent on a different forum "Requested" that I call him SENSEI...like that. For me it is a matter of who you are....must like Paul and Steve, I dont ever call myself by a title! I find it assinine and pig headed to FORCE someone to use a title INNAPPROPIRATLY, much like Steve I find it silly and moronic to foce someone to call them by a title that is not appropriate.
Hell I got embarassed Really baddly at a gathering of Friends when one read my name (*Middle names are David Raymond...ergo DR). I was called Dr.Sensei all night! I tried to correct a few but as I did not know any of them I just walked around red faced all night by the mistake and Prayed that I did not run into anyone from my organization all night....my instructor found this very funny when I told him...If I have not taught you ....I am James...out of the Dojo...I am james....To my friends...I am Jay, to my wife...I am what ever she wants to call me!
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Post by fujicolt on Jan 1, 2011 3:55:45 GMT
sad thing is James - imagine how that chap must treat his students After my initial instructor - John Tattum retired, Steve Cattle (sadly passed) was one of my main sensei, along with Dave Hazard and frank Cope and for a while Ticky Donovan.. All of them were massively way ahead of me in rank and experience but all insisted that outside of the Dojo they were Steve, Dave, Ticky and frank. all 3 used to come with me to visit my old Mum and THEY treated her like she was the Queen. She understood Karate hierarchy and knew they were very senior to me but she treated them like little boys - She would fuss over them and loved to feed them (which they enjoyed as she was a great old school cook - big hearty meals that you would clear the plate and want to sleep) they loved it and they were simply fantastic with her. True Sensei in my opinion. funny thing was - one time when i had Kawasoe Sensei visiting for a weekend he was the same with her. on another point how much do you know of Ticky Donovan ?
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Post by kensei on Jan 1, 2011 20:48:10 GMT
sad thing is James - imagine how that chap must treat his students No kidding. the thing is that those that treat students like this may demand respect for a short time, but once the students have had enough they lose all of it. I know a few people like that and I can tell you they are not happy people. on another point how much do you know of Ticky Donovan ? Ticky Donovan, now their is a name I have not read in some time. Ticky is a Kyokushin off shoot guy that trained for a while under Kanazawa and Enoeda but moved to Kyokushin then left and formed the ishinryu style....not to be confused wiht Isshin-Ryu in Japan. From what I have read he was a great coach and had great success in Karate. I did hear some unfounded speculation of some significance was put towards him and PROVED to be false!
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Post by fujicolt on Jan 2, 2011 23:59:02 GMT
you shoulda seen him when he was competing - he told me a great story about when he won the European all styles. there was a break (whilst other Category finals were staged) between the semi and the final. He knew who he would fight and took a little walk around the Sports Centre to clear his head and prepare himself. When he got into the reception a professional photographer had placed dozens of photos of the elimination round up on a board. Ticky looked at them (his opponent in the final was a very fast and supple kicker (as was ticky actually) but Ticky noticed that on every photo of the guy kicking his arms were flayed out.
Ticky used this in the opening minute and scored successive points with gyaku tsuki's whilst the chap kicked. after that Ticky got stuck into his lead and won.
Yer gotta give him that was Zanshin - to be so conscious of anything that wasn't cheating - many sportsmen watch vids of those they will comete against for example - and USE IT!
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Post by kensei on Jan 3, 2011 1:36:01 GMT
Great example of a great Karate mind!
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Post by grunners4 on Jan 15, 2011 18:18:37 GMT
just jumping in late here been quiet - meandering around! in Japan, as an English teacher in the TEACHING context, I would introduce myself as "eigo kyoshi" - rather then "Eigo no sensei" Far less presumptious. So title is relevant to situation. Personally though I think the Japanese place far less importance on titles than us foreigners. Especially when it is a foreigner speaking. This said though, students would still refer to me as sensei. It is bestowed upon you by others.
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Post by westbfella on Jan 15, 2011 19:35:05 GMT
Hi everybody I'm Sensei James! Hahahahaha ;D I do believe that in a dojo I should be called anything but that. I am a fully qualified school teacher, head of Music and if a child calls me "James". Where are the boundaries? In fact I am Dr James Martin ph.D. I have devoted my short life so far to studying education and social sciences. In school however I do not tell people so my peers and students call me "Mr". When I speak for universities I get addressed by "Dr". And its also pretty cool when I get a letter addressed to Doc Martin! I DO NOT think of myself as a Doctor, because I'm not really - I was just too scared to get a job so stayed at university until my money run out- also university karate squad!!!!!! I am English. I understand this fact and embrace it. I also study and believe in a Japanese art. When Japenese instructors or higher grade English instructors visit my dojo they call me James Sensei out of respect and I do the same. So in a dojo between instructors we are Sensei. In school between peers we are "Miss" and "Sir" and in academia I am "Dr". I see absolutely nothing wrong with this. If I came to any of your dojos I would address you as sensei and would expect the same (in both yours and my dojo). If you do not believe in differentiation get rid of the black belt, don your hemp shoes and we will get rid of the establishment, man!! I am allowed to disagree, aren't I? I am new to this forum so please excuse me. (I do not agree with demanding to be called Master or red and white belts or massive badges or more than one club badge or taekwondo! ) Ossu Sensei
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Post by fujicolt on Jan 15, 2011 19:45:24 GMT
Similar position as most here i think James .
As Doc Martin you couldn't get me an introduction to Catherine Catz couldya - i think she is so pretty! oops wife comin I'm off LOL
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Post by kensei on Jan 17, 2011 4:08:21 GMT
James, Dont get me wrong, its not the use of titles in general that I think is offensive, its the mis use of titles, people that have no personal reallationship asking me to use a title that infers a personal realationship and the like.
Job titles like "your honor" when talking to a judge while he is robed up or calling an instructor Sensei while he is in his Gi and belt...even if he is not mine, well that is fine by me. If I come and visit your club and you are in Gi and Obi then I will call you sensei...if you are on the net or street and insist upon being called Sensei, kyoshi or any other title...well you will more than likely get "james" and a dirty look.
Titles have a proper place and use. The misuse of the titles has become a bit issue as of late, along with ranks relevence being infered as an "across the board" kind of thing. Makes me laugh a big old belly laugh when I talk to some people!!!!
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Post by Paul Bedard on Jan 17, 2011 4:45:58 GMT
So I take it you wont be calling me `Supreme grand master, legend in my own mind` anytime soon!!!!! `WELL` Paul B
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Post by fleur on Jan 17, 2011 8:56:45 GMT
Yes, I was actually a little unsure recently when addressing Patrick McCarthy and Andre Bertel in email enquires as to what to call them. They are not my sensei's but they are high ranking instructors deserving of respect so erring on the side of caution I addressed them as Sensei but was a little unsure if this was appropriate from a complete stranger?
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Post by kensei on Jan 17, 2011 12:58:28 GMT
So I take it you wont be calling me `Supreme grand master, legend in my own mind` anytime soon!!!!! `WELL` Paul B Not to your face ;D
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Post by kensei on Jan 17, 2011 13:04:14 GMT
Yes, I was actually a little unsure recently when addressing Patrick McCarthy and Andre Bertel in email enquires as to what to call them. They are not my sensei's but they are high ranking instructors deserving of respect so erring on the side of caution I addressed them as Sensei but was a little unsure if this was appropriate from a complete stranger? Emails, I hate them.....well lets see...my take would be that if you are "going to them" to ask something or wanting help with something then you would call them Sensei and show respect, which I am NOT against! But if it was a nice chat and a continuation off of a subject not Karate or when you are not getting advice...then use first names. personally I have spoken with Andre a few times and emailed him a bit back and forth, not a tone. . but I call him Andre, he understands that even with his rank and possition in the Karate world he may be a senior to me and might get a "sempai" if we were to have a closer relationship or be in a Dojo, but with his training under Asai he gets that he is not my instructor and out of the club its simply Andre and James...not Sensei and Deshi! As for Patrick, well I will let my experiences with that gent not influence me at all. I do call him Patrick and we have a bit of a over the internet history. Both being Canadians I think he respected me being up front about NOT calling him Sensei or Sempai. Truth is that the titles denote a relationship, the issue is when to use them and what kind of relationship are you saying you have. James
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Post by Paul Bedard on Jan 18, 2011 1:21:49 GMT
Well said James. And Fleur it certainly isn`t bad manners to call somebody sensei, even if you don`t know them. If they hold a high rank in their org & you respect that, then addressing them accordingly is good manners. I personally don`t know Andre Bertel, so in my case I would address him as Mr. Bertel until we at least developed a relationship. Patrick McCarthy years ago did me a good turn, by steering to the people that I still train with today. Out of respect for his kindness at the time & the fact that he has persued his vision in the martial arts I call him respectfully sensei . However I do know that in a private setting it would be just fine to call him Patrick. IMHO if you truly respect the person then calling them by their honorific title is fine. If you don`t know them, but still want to show respect then Mr. / Mrs. is good manners. If you get friendly on a website, if they are not your sensei or sempai, then a first name basis should be good. After all they don`t know you & are doing the same.. Osu Paul B
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Post by fujicolt on Jan 18, 2011 2:18:49 GMT
It appears that there is a lot of similar thinking amongst us here and i am sure we have all known of, or had experience of, people whom have 'demanded' titles and respect and therefore didn't get it from us. similarly though i am sure that we have all come across some individuals that without request or even expectation of titles or respect just ooze with that 'something' that makes you feel respect for them and a desire to call them Sensei both in the Dojo and out of it. Enoeda Sensei and Kanazawa Sensei are two in my personal experience that had that something that I speak of above and i would have felt very uncomfortable (even if they asked me to ) in referring to them in any other manner than a very respectful 'Sensei'. - anything other than that would be simply unimaginable. on a humorous note - back in the 80's there was a certain individual that used to regularly be at the CHP tournament events who had SENSEI embroidered on the left breast of his Gi. i giggle now when i think of the way we used to take the P*ss out of him by all bowing low and grunting a long and loud 'OSSSS SENSEI!' whenever he walked by. the dozy eeydyut was so up his own a*se he thought we meant it and he would echo a resounding 'OSSSS!' give us a little bow and walk on with a face like a grinning hippo LOL! this went on for several months until someone told him that we were actually taking the P*ss. He then turned up in a new Gi with no embroidery. However some time later one sharp eyed member of our group noticed that he was wearing an Obi with 'SENSEI' embroidered on it in Japanese Kanji
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Post by kensei on Jan 21, 2011 19:50:20 GMT
I met this guy who insisted that I call him your Royal Highness. He even had people to advise you what to call him. I thought it a bit much as he hadn't earned my respect, as you can still be hanged for treason and they had guns I played along. "his royal highnes" and "your honor" are more "JOB TITTLES" than Honoraries like Sensei....same game...different playing feild. I would much rather get a dirty look from a "sensei" then thrown in the clink by a "your honor" anyday.....
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Post by Paul Bedard on Jan 21, 2011 22:55:09 GMT
Well here we go! You Brits are not going to like this, but it`s the way I am. Sorry. I would call the royal family prince so & so are the queen , queen Elizabeth, but they are not my monarchy as I am Canadian & we have our own flag, also my heritage is French, so `your royal highness` is a term I don`t use. Also, even though I wouldn`t wish her any harm, I don`t sing `god save the queen` either, being agnostic , gives that one a double wammy. Please don`t take offense, I at least respect them, which is more than I can say for our own Prime minister, or Premier. Culls that they are. Osu Paul B
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Post by shinzan on Jan 22, 2011 11:58:10 GMT
I think it's a question of tradition. If we disregard tradition it's lost. Misintrepreting tradition and assuming entiltment to a term e.g. Sensei is just misplaced ego and well makes those concerned appear arrogant and self important. As for royalty and politics....... Let's stick to karate
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Post by kensei on Jan 22, 2011 15:06:05 GMT
I am with Paul on this one...First off "royal titles" are for those that the royalty rule over...and lets face it the British monorcy is basically a business family with out an actual business at this point! I am British...as far as my Dads side are Welsh and Londoners! But My blood is Red and white only, Canadian, so I get that traditionally the queen was the ruler, but for generations now that has not been the case.....But Pual, being French...agnostic and Canadian...what the hell is left to believe in...no let me guess...easter bunny...no to religious! Oh, I know...the tooth fairy! ;D
The fact is honorary titles are exactly that Honorary. the use of the respect prone title should at the least infer that you have a real respect for the person, never mind the traditionally only instructors used this title. I mean even in Enoeda was not my instructor you will be darn sure I would Call him Sensei and show proper resepct for him as I FEEL THAT RESPECT. Some boozoo who has enough money and business sense to run an organization and does not understand respect...yah, he might get sir or mr.
Nuf said
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Post by fujicolt on Jan 22, 2011 15:36:18 GMT
Kensei claiming 'Nuf Said' on a point - no i aint havin it ;D for example i didn't know we had a 'monorcy' I bet all next weeks Ice Cream money he responds LOL
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Post by Paul Bedard on Jan 22, 2011 15:51:52 GMT
I`m at that age where losing my teeth is areal possibility, in fact I lost one two years ago. So lets keep the tooth fairy out of this. I don`t want to hurt her feelings!! By the way, I do actually believe in a few things. I believe in unconditional love to my family. I believe in friendship & I believe in being loyal to those that have been loyal to you. And just last evening, when I got tired, I looked at my wife & said `I believe that I should go to bed` ;D Osu Paul B
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Post by fujicolt on Jan 22, 2011 16:08:48 GMT
did she than reply ' I believe that you better go straight to sleep then and none of that hankypanky nonsense or I shall be in the spare room again you old fool' and you replied 'Oh Sensei if i beg?'
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Post by Paul Bedard on Jan 23, 2011 2:17:20 GMT
Oh Steve! I`ll have you know, that I learned a long time ago, that begging doesn`t work, either.... Osu Paul B
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Post by fujicolt on Jan 23, 2011 3:44:00 GMT
sad pair of old farts aren't we eh?
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Post by Paul Bedard on Jan 23, 2011 15:50:50 GMT
You know how it is; snore too loud, fart too much. Even though I don`t hear or smell it, apparently it`s hard on her. Romantic as all get out. Osu Paul B
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Post by tomobrien on Jan 27, 2011 18:05:14 GMT
When I first went out into the internet & ventured into a martial arts forum I went by the name 'Sensei Tom O'Brien'. I was immediately confronted by a very abrasive person , who is in this forum , & I was told that because I was not 'his' sensei, I had no right to be addressed with that title. I had never thought about it & so I had to admit he was right. (although there are other forums where I am known by that monicker or title) My sensei told me a that he would never call someone master or grand master. There are some systems that use these titles & I have to agree with my sensei. Master is a title I dislike. Thanks, Tom
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Post by fujicolt on Jan 27, 2011 23:06:20 GMT
there is only one title that i love to be called = Dad
However since my kids hit teenage years it appears to have lengthened to 'Dad, Can I have'
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