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Chinte
Jan 9, 2011 14:14:43 GMT
Post by andyupton on Jan 9, 2011 14:14:43 GMT
Was the Kata "Chinte" created by a woman or created with females in mind ? I'm referring to techniques like the finger strikes to the eyes in the Kata.
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Chinte
Jan 9, 2011 17:03:47 GMT
Post by Paul Bedard on Jan 9, 2011 17:03:47 GMT
Good question! As far as I know, this kata was created mainly for women, however of course we all train with it. Was it created by a woman? Maybe Steve or James can enlighten us!! Osu Paul B
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Chinte
Jan 9, 2011 17:44:31 GMT
Post by fujicolt on Jan 9, 2011 17:44:31 GMT
funnily enough i am currently trying to gen up on Kata and history for the book - haven't fully got to chinte yet but....
Chinte - ‘Unusual Hands’ has a variety of movements not seen in other Kata - especially so striking techniques to be accurately used against vulnerable points on the attackers body. It is for this reason and its popularity amongst women Kata Competitors that I think it has become known as a Woman’s Kata. However, I do not believe that to truly be the case.
Steve Cattle Showed me a fantastic Bunkai for it that utilised a Bo (Staff) and Atemi Strikes in conjunction with each other.
I think it was introduced by Itosu but am not certain about that yet.
There is varying opinion concerning Chinte’s origin. I have heard claims that it has its origin in Okinawan folklore Dances and have also heard it originates from Southern China.
The Kata is IMHO very difficult to perform really well and fully demonstrate it’s changes in tempo and power/relaxation. Dave Hazard is the best I have ever seen demonstrate it but if my memory serves me correctly he hates it - or did!
sorry lads but thats all i can tell yer for now.
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Chinte
Jan 9, 2011 19:22:43 GMT
Post by andyupton on Jan 9, 2011 19:22:43 GMT
In our club (Wirral Shotokan), we had a Sensei, Sheila Birkett (R.I.P.) and Chinte became known as "Sheilas' Kata" because she did it so well.
I have also heard that it is of Chinese origin because of the circular arm movements.
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Chinte
Jan 9, 2011 19:26:46 GMT
Post by fujicolt on Jan 9, 2011 19:26:46 GMT
I contacted the oracle - HC - it is a shito ryu Kata via Mabuni and Itosu - the original did not have the 3 hops = added later by the JKA
Tis not a woman specific kata but the atemi strikes do suit women or smaller Karateka.
Sheila was a star I miss her. God Bless.
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Chinte
Jan 10, 2011 1:59:16 GMT
Post by Paul Bedard on Jan 10, 2011 1:59:16 GMT
It is my understanding that the three hops were added mainly because shotokan kata start & finish in the same spot, so the three hops were added to get us back to the starting point. Osu Paul B
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Chinte
Jan 10, 2011 2:23:24 GMT
Post by fujicolt on Jan 10, 2011 2:23:24 GMT
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Chinte
Jan 10, 2011 2:38:32 GMT
Post by Paul Bedard on Jan 10, 2011 2:38:32 GMT
Think back to watching animals. This is like a bunny hopping back to his hole. Perfect self defense.lol Paul B
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Chinte
Jan 10, 2011 13:28:13 GMT
Post by kensei on Jan 10, 2011 13:28:13 GMT
Sorry it took me so long to get to this one....did not notice it was a topic I have been researching Kata since I was in High school...because I was kind of board in high school to be frank! I made several "Books" for myself and students over the years and one of the most interesting Katas I researched was Chinte. It has a interesting past and WAS NOT created for ladies, but after the JKA started doing it more and more a instructor commented on how perfect it was for self defense and especially for ladies because of the unique hand movements that allowed for a smaller person to protect themsevles. This comment caught on and some matcho guys in the 60-70's labeled it a ladies Kata. In fact I can recal when I started in Karate in the late 70's it was already being called a Ladies Kata and mostly girls did this Kata in tournaments in Canada. I went to a koyo camp in Ottawa a bunch of years back and was interested when Imura Sensei did this Kata...very nice Kata that man has! The fact is that the Kata was turned into a ladies Kata when an instructor commented on this Kata.....AND EMPI being great for ladies to train in....interesting how Empi did not swing into a girls kata. And who was the instructor.......Nishyama sensei. I have the article from a VERY old magazine, I will find it later if I still have it and reference it for you all!
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Chinte
Jan 10, 2011 13:37:11 GMT
Post by andyupton on Jan 10, 2011 13:37:11 GMT
I wasn't suggesting that Chinte is a "ladies Kata" in a derogatory sense. I love Chinte. I like the unusual circular motions of the arms and the Mae Geri from Shuto Uke folowed by the double block and the block / Tettsui Uchi.
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Chinte
Jan 10, 2011 13:40:59 GMT
Post by kensei on Jan 10, 2011 13:40:59 GMT
I wasn't suggesting that Chinte is a "ladies Kata" in a derogatory sense. I love Chinte. I like the unusual circular motions of the arms and the Mae Geri from Shuto Uke folowed by the double block and the block / Tettsui Uchi. I dont think I infered "you" wer Andy, If it came off that way my appologies.
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Chinte
Jan 12, 2011 2:49:41 GMT
Post by Paul Bedard on Jan 12, 2011 2:49:41 GMT
Just last month master Yaguchi has is doing `chinte` & never once called it a womans kata. I know that most of us really like the kata, it has a variety of stances, circular motions, interesting timing & yes eye gouging, What he did go over was the hops at the end. Explaining that the feet don`t really leave the floor. What he explains as `one paper`, the gap between the floor & the feet is the thickness of one rice paper.. Osu Paul B
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Chinte
Jan 12, 2011 23:12:51 GMT
Post by jimlukelkc on Jan 12, 2011 23:12:51 GMT
Whilst I am not for a moment suggesting this was the original intent of the three hops at the end of chinte, I find it works very well as a neck crank and the hops backwards and at angle provide the leverage necessary. It works for me and fits in better with my philosophy rather than just getting back to the starting position, or symbolic of birds pecking at the shoreline or whatever other quasi- oriental bs you want to affix to it. I simply cannot accept that this is the only kata in the whole shotokan pantheon that contains a technique which has no practical application.
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Chinte
Jan 12, 2011 23:29:04 GMT
Post by fujicolt on Jan 12, 2011 23:29:04 GMT
hear hear!
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Chinte
Jan 13, 2011 2:51:28 GMT
Post by fleur on Jan 13, 2011 2:51:28 GMT
I contacted the oracle - HC - it is a shito ryu Kata via Mabuni and Itosu - the original did not have the 3 hops = added later by the JKA I might be completely on the wrong page here. But has the Shotokan Chinte kata possibly in anyway, evolved from the Okinawan kata Chinto? I have you tubed Chinte and I have to admit it looks completely different. However Steve your suggestion that it came via Itosu makes me think there may be a connection. The Okinawan kata Chinto was developed by Itosu's Sensei - Sokon Matsumura (the kings bodyguard). The story goes - a shipwrecked chinamen hauled up in a cave on the hillside of okinawa, stole from the local villages to survive. The king sent his bodyguard - Matsumura to 'sort it out'. When Matsumura confronted the tiny chinamen and tried to arrest him, he ducted and dived in beautiful circular motion and the asteamed Matsumura (a renowned te expert) could not capture of defeat the quick footed man. He was so impressed that he made a deal with the chinamen to feed him??(if my memory serves me right) if he taught him his wonderful art form. The chinamen agreed. His name was 'Chinto'. Matsurmura went on to develope the Okinawan kata named Chinto, incorporating the moves and techniques he was taught. This kata was then passed onto Anko Itosu and then down through into the Shorin Ryu schools. Funakoshi and Mabuni both trained under Itosu - whether some of the moves from the original Chinto helped create Chinte - I don't know. But I do not believe that Chinte itself came from Itosu. It appears to me it was delevoped later.
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Chinte
Jan 13, 2011 4:48:10 GMT
Post by Paul Bedard on Jan 13, 2011 4:48:10 GMT
Fleur, I have read that story too. Also at one time I as thinking that it was what we call Chinte. However I`m quite sure that the original Chinto has evolved to what we call `Gankaku` crane on a rock. Osu Paul B
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Chinte
Jan 13, 2011 7:02:33 GMT
Post by fleur on Jan 13, 2011 7:02:33 GMT
Yes, I was thinking about this a little more over dinner and did a bit of digging. And the kata's are diffenately too different. But as to origin, I am thinking since Steve reckons Harry said it came from Mabuni that it probably came not via Itosu but his other major Sensei - Arakaki Seisho who trained under Xie Zhongxia (Ryu Ryu Ko) who trained in whooping Crane gung fu. This is the Goju sector of Mabuni's training, and the circular motion and eye gouging kinda fits with this style. Funakoshi also trained under Arakaki Seisho. I don't know of course, I'm just surmising.
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Chinte
Jan 13, 2011 7:13:47 GMT
Post by westbfella on Jan 13, 2011 7:13:47 GMT
I love this kata (my favourite) and maybe this makes me a bit of a girl!
Elbow strikes, eye poking, ippon ken - sounds more like a Friday night down the local pub than a girls kata.
I've decided to include my redention as a small gift.
Kata speaks louder than words. Ossu
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Chinte
Jan 13, 2011 7:31:38 GMT
Post by fleur on Jan 13, 2011 7:31:38 GMT
James - sweet! very Nice. Of course I had never even seen this kata till today - because of this thread. I just cant get my head around those little bunny hops at the end thou!
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Chinte
Jan 13, 2011 13:37:38 GMT
Post by kensei on Jan 13, 2011 13:37:38 GMT
as part of my research over the years I have tried to nail down Chinte and this is what I have found. The Kata itself is Chinese in origin and was one of the "Exchange" Katas that the early Shotokan/JKA and Shito ryu group had. Almost all of the original movements of all of the excnhange Katas were worked on and changed by the JKA group. Chinte in Okinawa does not have the tiny hops as some Chinese Kata do not worry about ending the forms were they start, Chinte being one of them...or another story is that Gigo did not like the last three moves and simply replaced them with the hops. Chinto is in fact Gankaku and was altered, again, by the JKA group to be more linear and follow specific "shotokan-ization" (like that? ) in order to be to their liking. Infact Sochin was changed so much that basically the name is the only original thing about the Kata. Some suggest that Funakoshi sensei gave his son and the JKA members a list of Kata to go and learn and when they came back he let Gigo change a great deal of the Katas. Some time later Funakoshi felt it would be better to change many of the names of the Katas to be more Japanese and less Chinese...Chinte was slated to be called "Shoin" but the changes never came about. Instead of looking at the funny eye pokes and Nakadaka Kens lets look instead at the Fudo Dachis and the Changes from Fudo to Zenkutsu. The Kata is great for training Rooting feelings and a heavy connection to the ground. It dont see this as a girls Kata AT ALL!
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Chinte
Jan 13, 2011 15:43:42 GMT
Post by fujicolt on Jan 13, 2011 15:43:42 GMT
as part of my research over the years I have tried to nail down Chinte and this is what I have found. The Kata itself is Chinese in origin and was one of the "Exchange" Katas that the early Shotokan/JKA and Shito ryu group had. Almost all of the original movements of all of the excnhange Katas were worked on and changed by the JKA group. Chinte in Okinawa does not have the tiny hops as some Chinese Kata do not worry about ending the forms were they start, Chinte being one of them...or another story is that Gigo did not like the last three moves and simply replaced them with the hops. Chinto is in fact Gankaku and was altered, again, by the JKA group to be more linear and follow specific "shotokan-ization" (like that? ) in order to be to their liking. Infact Sochin was changed so much that basically the name is the only original thing about the Kata. Some suggest that Funakoshi sensei gave his son and the JKA members a list of Kata to go and learn and when they came back he let Gigo change a great deal of the Katas. Some time later Funakoshi felt it would be better to change many of the names of the Katas to be more Japanese and less Chinese...Chinte was slated to be called "Shoin" but the changes never came about. Instead of looking at the funny eye pokes and Nakadaka Kens lets look instead at the Fudo Dachis and the Changes from Fudo to Zenkutsu. The Kata is great for training Rooting feelings and a heavy connection to the ground. It dont see this as a girls Kata AT ALL! Top Post James!
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Chinte
Jan 13, 2011 18:02:58 GMT
Post by shinzan on Jan 13, 2011 18:02:58 GMT
I have to echo Steve's sentiments here great post Kensei. Thank you also for puttting it out there that kata have many other purposes than passing gradings or to be purely asthetically pleasing. for instance our sensei (sensei watt 3rd dan) had us training Hangetsu and although it's way ahead of me interms of grading I can still learn from these more advanced kata and improve outside of grading requirements. good one Kensei
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Chinte
Jan 13, 2011 19:10:13 GMT
Post by andyupton on Jan 13, 2011 19:10:13 GMT
Great replies, everyone, and a nice video. That's the way every association does it I expect, but in my association, we do it with bigger arm movements.
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Chinte
Jan 14, 2011 1:40:48 GMT
Post by Paul Bedard on Jan 14, 2011 1:40:48 GMT
Really enjoy it when James shares his knowledge on kata. He obviously has done his homework. Right on James. As far as the way Chinte is done, large movements over tighter smaller movements, Master Yaguchi tells us that neither is wrong. He actually teaches the larger movements, but when some were doing them tighter he explained, ` not a mistake `, `just different idea`. He then explained that especially in tournaments, you see the tighter more often. However he did his best to have us understand that the applications ( bunkai ) would be different. It seemed to me that he preferred the larger movements, so that is what I try to do!!! Osu Paul B
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Chinte
Jan 14, 2011 13:44:22 GMT
Post by kensei on Jan 14, 2011 13:44:22 GMT
Really enjoy it when James shares his knowledge on kata. He obviously has done his homework. Right on James. As far as the way Chinte is done, large movements over tighter smaller movements, Master Yaguchi tells us that neither is wrong. He actually teaches the larger movements, but when some were doing them tighter he explained, ` not a mistake `, `just different idea`. He then explained that especially in tournaments, you see the tighter more often. However he did his best to have us understand that the applications ( bunkai ) would be different. It seemed to me that he preferred the larger movements, so that is what I try to do!!! Osu Paul B Thanks Paul, Actually I recall going threw Chinte with Yaguchi sensei a long time ago. I often miss his teaching. I know that Dingman Sensei always talks about Yaguchi sensei as does Brian Dingman. Makes me recall old times. He truely is a special person and a specail teacher. Any one EVER get a chance...take in one of his classes, its like watching poetry!
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Chinte
Jan 15, 2011 3:09:08 GMT
Post by Paul Bedard on Jan 15, 2011 3:09:08 GMT
Come visit us for 4 days in the spring. March 16-19. Did you know that in the early days, that Tanaka sensei of the JKA was a student of master Yaguchi. When ever I have been around master Yaguchi & Tanaka is mentioned, he always smiles & proudly says `my student`.. James, I really enjoy your comments, you are a straight shooter, with a solid background.. Osu Paul B
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Chinte
Jan 15, 2011 3:26:00 GMT
Post by kensei on Jan 15, 2011 3:26:00 GMT
Come visit us for 4 days in the spring. March 16-19. Did you know that in the early days, that Tanaka sensei of the JKA was a student of master Yaguchi. When ever I have been around master Yaguchi & Tanaka is mentioned, he always smiles & proudly says `my student`.. James, I really enjoy your comments, you are a straight shooter, with a solid background.. Osu Paul B I knew that Tanaka was his student. in the 80's I was asked by Yaguchi Sensei "who do you like in Karate most". I said "tanaka sensei is my favorite....Dingman Sensei started to laugh..and Yaguchi sensei said "ah, he is Yaguchis Student...so you like Yaguchi most" and started laughing. That was right before he started stealing food off my plate! We all miss Yaguchi Sensei in Manitoba, the students that had to leave him were deeply hurt by the whole experience. but like he told Dingman Sensei, life must go on!
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Chinte
Jan 15, 2011 3:48:48 GMT
Post by Paul Bedard on Jan 15, 2011 3:48:48 GMT
OSU Paul B
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Chinte
Jan 17, 2011 16:26:08 GMT
Post by fujicolt on Jan 17, 2011 16:26:08 GMT
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