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Post by jimlukelkc on Jan 29, 2011 16:59:10 GMT
Any thoughts?
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Post by Paul Bedard on Jan 29, 2011 17:17:52 GMT
Karate ni sente nashi = In karate never attack first!
Being a self defense system this holds a lot of merit, as if we were to attack first then it`s not self defense.
This is shown to us in kata, as the first move is defensive.
This is martial art not martial sport.
This can be so useful in everyday life; for example don`t be the one who starts an argument.
Just a few thoughts.. Osu Paul B
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Post by fujicolt on Jan 29, 2011 18:00:11 GMT
actually - to strike the first blow can be legally sound.
I believe that we need to widen our thinking on this to beyond the physical.
events that place us at 'perceived' fear or risk of imminent danger that haven't actually included a physical assault yet, can be legally considered to justify you striking the fist blow - in legal terms it entails the concepts of Mens Rea and Actus Rea (i can see you all googling away LOL)
I think Karate Ni Senti Nashi is asking us to also consider how we conduct ourselves to ensure we act justifiably and honourably which are fundamental aspects of true Budo Study - Yokota Sensei speaks of exactly this in his interview.
food for thought for us all
Great idea for a thread James.
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Post by Paul Bedard on Jan 30, 2011 3:51:02 GMT
I don`t believe that you have to have a blow coming at you to feel attacked. An aggressive behaviour coming your way can be attack enough to justify a defensive action. We don`t have to wait for a punch or kick coming at us. Just someone coming in my space aggressively is good enough for me to feel threatened. Osu Paul B
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Post by fujicolt on Jan 30, 2011 4:01:15 GMT
that'd be our wives then paul ;D ;D ;D
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Post by Paul Bedard on Jan 30, 2011 4:05:15 GMT
Well, I have the perfect defense for when that happens!!! ;D
`YES DEAR`
Osu Paul B
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Post by fujicolt on Jan 30, 2011 4:19:02 GMT
so tis an international response then Paul?
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Post by genkaimade on Jan 30, 2011 9:12:46 GMT
I've always understood in tandem with ikken hissatsu, in that there isn't a first attack in karate because there is only one attack, if you catch my drift.
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Post by fujicolt on Jan 30, 2011 11:13:44 GMT
a very different way of looking at it Alex but i think you maybe confusing the context of ' first attack' in that it is 'the first 'attack' in the event rather than the 'first attack in a chain of techniques' but heyho maybe we are all wrong and i do not mean that to sound patronising
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jan 30, 2011 18:30:14 GMT
I cannot think that anyone would advocate, in a confrontational situation, it is a sensible thing to wait until your opponent actually throws a punch?! People who do this are generally known as casualties! Even Funakoshi recognised the merits of the pre-emptive strike. Do we know for sure that all Kata start with a block? I can think of a few that obviously do not and am not convinced that even the majority do. Ikken hissatsu is an ideal in concept but as a reality could get you in a great deal of trouble. Personally I have found that kata work best when the distance is "up close and personal", however that makes the application of blocks problematic in that it gives you minimal reaction time. How to reconcile the two? Maybe they are not blocks?
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Post by fujicolt on Jan 31, 2011 1:04:44 GMT
I cannot think that anyone would advocate, in a confrontational situation, it is a sensible thing to wait until your opponent actually throws a punch?! People who do this are generally known as casualties! Even Funakoshi recognised the merits of the pre-emptive strike. Do we know for sure that all Kata start with a block? I can think of a few that obviously do not and am not convinced that even the majority do. Ikken hissatsu is an ideal in concept but as a reality could get you in a great deal of trouble. Personally I have found that kata work best when the distance is "up close and personal", however that makes the application of blocks problematic in that it gives you minimal reaction time. How to reconcile the two? Maybe they are not blocks? In essence Jim you have laid out the basis of the argument that i have put forward for decades = Forget the concept of Kata Applications they do NOT exists because nobody - even historians as finicky and professional about about evidence as Harry Cook, can claim 'This is the application' as NOBODY knows.* All ANYBODY can claimis 'The movements of this kata may imply x or y or z etc. Once you get your mind around that and realise that the vast majority are old - and have been changed over the years anyway, came from an era before Karate competitions and were based on actual fighting (up close and personal as stated) then this paradigm shift allows you to see possible usage for Kata moves and usually, in my experience, they are far removed from the crap often shown that is out of range, attacker cooperation dependent and as unlikely to be successful as a one legged man at an arse kicking party! Lets face it gents and ladies - we even have, here at our forum, an 8th dan senior JAPANESE Instructor advicing us not to blindly believe what we have been told or lead to believe. Spot on Jim IMHO * I am not suggesting Harry makes such claims - he usually buts forward several variations of Kata movement usage.
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Post by redbudo on Feb 22, 2011 22:29:00 GMT
I ran across this and I felt a compelled to chime in. Slightly non-plussed because it's a question I've never encountered in the dojo. Of course, I'm acquainted with the quote and with the thinking behind it. I need to say that the pronionance of my thinking is definitely old-school and I don't disagree with anything that's been said on this forum. My formative years were in the early sixties with JKA training in Fukuoka and Yahata, Japan. I actually knew Greer Golden back then. Returning to the states I was with Mr. Nishiyama and also with Mr. Ozawa. My perspective is possibly biased on the aggressive side of the continuum because most of the training in Japan was with team members of the Kitakyushu University competitive JKA team. So, I'm not making any right/wrong claims here--I'm only speaking from a certain point of view. That said, if you wish to read further--please look at the .doc attachment on the related timing concept of Sen. It's part of a larger document cobbled together for my son. This forum seems to have interesting topics and some very thoughtful contributions. So, I say Greetings from Reno Nevada Chuck Attachments:
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Post by fujicolt on Feb 22, 2011 23:36:34 GMT
Sorry Chuck NO DOUBT my fault as I am a complete computer numpty but i cannot seem to get your attachment to open - but i have been having trouble on this computer all week - any suggestions kind computer bods (and I have run cleaning programs and a registry scan and repair)
Thanks in advance and I look forward to reading your article Chuck (That name is so cool and so American = Brilliant)
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Post by Paul Bedard on Feb 23, 2011 2:56:26 GMT
A good read there Chuck. Interesting when you give us your experience in Japan with it. Never backed up you say. good quick explanations on Go No Sen & Sen No Sen, would Sen Sen No Sen be the same as Tai No Sen?? Attack at the same time? Osu Paul B Steve when you download this, you might get an icon on the lower left of your screen, click this, then it will ask to open then click again.. you computer illiterate tea drinker... ;D
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Post by redbudo on Feb 23, 2011 15:04:27 GMT
Re Paul's question tai no sen / sen no sen
I'm not very good on terminology but if you're asking in the sense of the simultaneous initiative; then, yes. Exactly the same as sen no sen. But there is a twist to the simultaneous initiative which is difficult to explain.
I hinted at it when I said that there is an aspect of pre-emption in sen no sen because of the simultaneity. We get into murky waters here--no less for me! The Japanese were not into explanation.
We learned by doing, not by reflection. Experience, not discourse. And, I am particularly thick about this kind of reflection. I'll start with your lead-off comment about not stepping back.
It's true. Not much effort was spent on stepping back except in basic 1-step; 3-step; 5-step drills. After that-none.
There's another forum question elsewhere here which asks for ideas on other disciplines which complement shotokan and I was mulling over whether to add some input. I will say that the Filipino arts have a much faster learning curve than the Japanese, particularly where it comes to footwork and maneuvering lines. But, you do need some experience in shotokan otherwise you might muddle things up. I know that I'm saying all of this very badly.
Back to Japan. We didn't step back. We didn't have the sense of block & counter. We didn't talk about late or early initiative. We talked about merging or meeting an attack.
To say it differently--we actually had some pre-cognition about what was coming. We met the attack. Not deliberately or consciously. We just did. And I mean that in the same sense that we could tell who would win and who would lose the instant they would step onto the mat.
Imagine how un-nerving it is for an opponent who is mounting an attack to realize that you are closing. Imagine the closing speed. Our concept of taking away distance was to close; not step back.
Now, if you are very proficient at stepping back; or looking for openings; or slipping to the side--can you do sen no sen? I don't know the answer. If your name is Asai--well, then yes.
That's what I meant in my initial post when I averred that Musashi disliked the idea of taking a stance; looking for an opening; thinking in terms of response, etc. He considered all of these defensive mind-sets.
We, in Japan, knew that inevitable collisions would occur--in my case, my fist would be going right down the middle and I didn't mind if my fist would collide with another fist coming the other way.
The pre-cognition part? I don't have any happy answers. The drills and experience gave us some insight into subtle cues and tells. We could read body language. I have no other way to explain it.
Sen no sen for us was truly simultaneous. And we haven't even added the control aspect of sen sen no sen. But that would overtax my power to explain. Easier to read John Boyd or Musashi.
If you find this idea intriguing I would suggest some confidence builders like swinging a tanren bo or pounding truck tires with a sledge hammer.
Cheers
Chuckl
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Post by redbudo on Feb 23, 2011 15:54:21 GMT
Re Steve/fujicolt unable to open my attachment - Sen
Hi Steve,
I don't know the drill here but I'd happily send you an MS Word.doc formatted attachment directly if that would help. I'd need an E-mail address.
Also, I could post the document in its entirety here as a post but I'm uncertain that the length would permit that--it's a little over 1-page of 9pt.
Or, the webmaster might display it somewhere if we asked nicely.
Willing to help any way I can.
Chuck
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Post by redbudo on Feb 23, 2011 16:10:01 GMT
To Paul #2 tai no sen / sen no sen
My comments in the prev post were in re to sen no sen. Not sen sen no sen so, perhaps your question is still open.
On second think; however, the thoughts expressed apply equally to sen sen no sen. My problem is terminology. I'm speaking of simultaneous initiative which admittedly does crowd into pre-emptive territory. The difference is the sense of control. Or set-up.
By the way; a simple stare-down could do that. Sen sen no sen, I mean.
I enjoyed the Japanese take on that. It's common to see boxers and MMA types glare at each other.
The Japanese on the Kitakyushu DaiGakko team would feign yawns or indifference.
My wrestling buddy from the Evil Empire spoke of a team mate who would be in the dressing room asleep with a towel on his head. They had to come get him when it was time for his match. He would shake himself off - say - Time for the match? Ok, let's go. He'd be stifling yawns as he walked up to face hi opponent and would dispatch him in a few seconds. He would return to the locker room and go back to sleep. He would not be caught sitting in the stands watching all of the contestants.
I like the thinking.
Chuck
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Post by Paul Bedard on Feb 24, 2011 1:05:19 GMT
Hi Chuck; thanks for your thoughts here, gives one a lot to absorb. I too have dallied in the Filipino arts a bit, training with Paul Vunak & a couple of his instructors under his JKD system, we primarily did kali & dumog. I do believe that this has helped fill some gaps in my shotokan training, helping me to have a more complete understanding. You say that you knew sensei Greer Golden, I have had the pleasure of training with him at sensei Cathy Clines camp in Washington state, he is quite the man. I really liked him, he worked our tails off. Osu Paul B
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Post by fujicolt on Feb 24, 2011 11:33:26 GMT
Chuck - may I suggest that you place your document in the articles section of the forum. you'll find the 'expand' facility that will allow you to place the article in its entirity. looking forward to reading it. also pm me and we can swap e-mail addresses. ta in advance
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Post by redbudo on Feb 24, 2011 14:44:46 GMT
For Steve - posted in Articles. I think.
For Paul,
Re Paul Vunak / Filipino etc
I couldn't agree with you more. My introduction was through many hours spent with Ted (Lucky) Lucaylucay on the beach of Carpinteria California.
My take then & now was that JKA/Shotokan taught me about power, stability, etc at mid-range distance. The Filipino arts taught me how to move and how to handle close distance.
The dilemma is - when to introduce these ideas after one has committed to a hard Japanese style?
Ditto grappling. In a perfect world I now think that Judo would be the ideal intro to the martial arts. I wish I had some judo training.
Greer Golden. Yes he was a tremendous early influence on me. Let me bring you into the picture.
I joined the U.S. Army after high school, age 17, and I found myself on a small Air Force base in Hakata, Japan. The base comprised Army, Air Force, and Marines. Greer Golden was in the Air Force.
On my 2nd day there I learned that karate was taught at the gym so off I went. I heard some strange sounds coming from a handball court; I looked in and saw a group of Goju types doing one of their tension kata--maybe sanchin or tensho; but, too me it was very strange.
Then, I walked into the large part of the gym--a basketball court where a very different karate style class was in progress. It was magnificent. I got goosebumps watching. I had never thought men could move like that; and with such power.
The instructor was Noboru Kobayashi, a JKA 3-dan who worked as an interpreter on base. He was also the manager and coach for the Kitakyushu Daigaku karate team which was highly regarded in Kyushu. Greer Golden was the senior student and a new 1-dan. This was 1961.
As I recall, Greer left for the states about a year or so later. You can see that we spent a lot of time with Greer Golden.
A funny anecdote from those days and one that always gave Mr Kobayashi a chuckle.
During sparring, we always knew when Greer Golden was about to mount an attack. His eyebrows would go up. I expect that he learned to control that tell.
Later, when I returned to the states, Greer was an undercover policeman in the L.A. area and stayed with Mr Nishiyama for a while. Good times.
I need to say something here so I don't get off on the wrong foot with you guys.
I am not an expert in much of anything and that includes karate. I just know what I know and my experience gives me a point of view.
I freely admit that I was pretty flaky in my whole approach to the martial arts--but, even with that, those associations that I have made thru the years managed to cram into me something in spite of all of my worst efforts. I have never been committed and I regret that. My way has been to dip my toes in here and there.
I do not have a complete JKA education. We were single-mindedly sparring oriented.
I am free with what I know but please realize that I don't really know that much.
Chuck
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Post by fujicolt on Feb 24, 2011 15:07:58 GMT
Chuck
let me tell you about this site, it's founders and their aim for it and its evolution to date.
I can speak with some authority because i was aware of the project before its launch, was even asked to assist with set up and have been a member since day one. please read on:
the forum was founded by George (Dod) Watt and his Son Liam Watt. Both students/friends of mine for a very long time. Dod is a very accomplished 3rd Dan Shotokan and a very good teacher. I have known Liam since he was a toddler and he finally started karate about 18 months ago because his Father never pushed him and left him to decide. he is now rising through the Kyu ranks and being a bull of a lad I envisage he will reach and even surpass his Father in skill and power - he is one of the hardest training and most powerful Kyu grades I have ever seen and I have been around teaching for a very long time.
Their aim was to launch a site where Shotokan students of both gender, all grades and every nation in the world could come together to discuss and debate anything Shotokan Karate related in a friendly and educating environment. they will not tolerate fools and troublemakers.
I believe they have achieved there goal. the site is visited by an ever growing membership of all age and grades whom have come to know and respect each other. they are a very friendly and helpful group with an excellent sense of humour.
Most importantly they all come here to learn and to share knowledge and I can personally attest to having learnt from all of them - beginner and very experienced.
So Chuck, relax and continue to post the interesting stuff you have up until now. you will soon get to know everyone - we have some real characters here - and you will find them to be friendly and helpful. Yes we don't always agree with each other BUT we all have agreed to disagree agreeably!
you are very welcome here and look like you are gonna be just as clinically insane as the rest of us. I just hope your 'dip in and out' of things problem now abates and you stay to contribute to this forum for a long time.
So don't chuck Oss Chuck LOL!
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Post by kensei on Feb 24, 2011 16:10:12 GMT
Chuck, My instructor is very good friends with Mr. Golden...do you still train with him?
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Post by fujicolt on Feb 24, 2011 16:52:19 GMT
Thanks for the background of the set up interesting. I know less than anybody and I won't have anybody taking that away from me. yep - your gonna fit right in as batty as a fruitcake!
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Post by redbudo on Feb 24, 2011 16:59:56 GMT
Re the question - do I still train with Greer Golden
No, no, no.
I lost track of Greer when he left California - 1963 or thenabouts - I think he was sent to Arizona to set up an organization there. Then later he went to Ohio to become the big factor we have all come to know. I very much doubt that he would remember me. Like I have said, I was a flake.
I only trained with Greer Golden during that brief year or so in Japan when he was getting ready to leave and I was still very new. When he left I might have been 2-kyu or so.
What was so notable about Greer was that he was a gentlemen in the old sense of that word. He was also very generous and patient with our clumsy efforts. He really did want us to get it.
In California I reacquainted myself with Greer but I cannot say that we trained together. Very soon I found myself once more on the move to Northern California.
But you did remind of a thought that occurred to me and which might explicate my offhand comment about not knowing how to step back. _______
I could sense Paul Bedard's breath intake as he read that; so here is a possible explanation.
We are talking about more than a generation ago. Shirai was just about to win the All Japan. Mikami had his day in the sun. Shotokan was a high impact explosive linear style. Of all of the various karate styles; I believe that shotokan was closest to the spirit of the sword styles. Remember that Nishiyama had practiced kendo.
Also remember that shotokan sprang from the active, fertile mind of Sokon Matsumura and his primary student Yasutsune Itosu (and Ankoh Azato--Funakoshi's teacher--was there, too) in the mid-nineteenth century. Yes, shotokan is a modern style.
I won't go into the history but these men were grim realists who faced a desperate situation. They discarded vital-point strikes; they discarded joint locks; they discarded submission techniques; they discarded grappling. The results had to be immediate and conclusive! Thus was born what we now know as shotokan.
Some of this thinking was still in the minds of those who mentored me in Japan half a century ago. I don't know if any of this kind of training is relevant today.
Have you ever seen Mikami throw a lunge punch? It was breathtaking! How could you step back or to the side in the face of that? No tai-sabaki mumbo jumbo would work. At least not unless your name was Asai!
Now, add 100 pounds of weight to that explosion. Now, you have a freight train about to squash you by the name of Frank Smith. He was one of Nishiyama's top fighters in those days.
Yes, we learned to take away distance by stepping in, not back. But, that was then. I hope this partially clarifies the puzzle.
Chuck
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Post by redbudo on Feb 24, 2011 17:10:44 GMT
To Steve & Paul,
Well, that's a relief.
Thanks for your kind words. It's a comfort to know that I can pretty speak from a point of view with no fear of being judged harshly from friends who truly want to understand a different view.
A great comfort.
Thanks,
Chuck
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Post by fujicolt on Feb 24, 2011 19:02:50 GMT
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Post by Paul Bedard on Feb 24, 2011 19:27:22 GMT
Much respect there Chuck!!! When I trained with sensei Golden I had the feeling of a true gentleman, with whom in his prime you would not want to get on the wrong side of. My impression is that he would have had a very aggressive style. He taught me something about etiquette that I will never forget. The mealtime traditional ritual of `Itedakemas` & `Gotzo sama` ( spelling?) Also he had spent a lot of time with master Yaguchi, most likely at the same time period that he trained with Nishiyama & Frank Smith. He told of a very funny story about driving master Yaguchi in his Volkswagen beetle. Yaguchi sensei, was quite restless & as driving down the road was working on connection & Uraken. He said Yaguchi had snapped out a back fist & crack, his windshield just broke, cracks everywhere. Sensei Golden looked at his windshield, looked at master Yaguchi who had an embarrassed gin & just said `Osu sensei` & carried on. Well of course we all laughed like hell when he told that story. Greer Golden was 6th dan when I had trained with him & today he is either 7th or 8th & is a factor in the ISKF under master Okazaki. Osu Paul B
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Post by Paul Bedard on Feb 24, 2011 19:30:11 GMT
Forgot to mention, in the last couple of years master Yaguchi has been working on us to evolve & attack the attack. I firmly believe that this helped me achieve a pass in my recent upgrading.. Osu Paul B
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Post by fujicolt on Feb 24, 2011 20:18:13 GMT
Paul
why oh why have you only been studying this for the last couple of years. Am not popping at you Paul but your instructors. We were doing this stuff 30 yrs ago in england!
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Post by redbudo on Feb 24, 2011 21:25:24 GMT
Re Paul's remarks Greer Golden and Mr. Yaguchi.
Well, gee Paul. You've worked with Greer Golden! Agressive as you put it. Well then, you ought not be surprised by my comments about this topic. We had the same early teachers!
Mr. Yaguchi. I actually trained at Mr. Yaguchi's dojo on two occasions. Very tough. I couldn't really perform very well; this was some time after my knee injury and I had not trained in some time. I was embarassed by my lack of ability so I wore a brown belt. I doubt that he would remember me.
What he might remember is that I rode my bicycle to the dojo. It was my only transportation at the time and I was looking for ways to strengthen the knee. I lived in Downey at the time and his dojo was some distance away. Someplace like Buena Park or El Cerrito--one of those endless small towns surrounding Los Angeles. He was so taken that I had bicycled that distance that he commented on it several times to his students. That, he might remember. Google the L.A. concrete jungle & you'll get some idea of what that meant. Alas, it was just too much and I only went the two times.
The VW story resonates with Mr. Nishiyama. Greer Golden will tell you that the only question Mr. Nishiyama asked when looking at cars was - how fast will it go? He drove a '57 Ford T-Bird with the fins and porthole windows. He wrecked it.
Those were the days.
Chuck
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