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GKR
Feb 2, 2011 1:14:42 GMT
Post by fujicolt on Feb 2, 2011 1:14:42 GMT
i have been talking to several people who have had bad experiences with GKR but i don't really know much about GKR - Can anyone enlighten me - who set it up and exactly what style is it they 'teach' and is it true they promote people to dan grade in a few months
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GKR
Feb 2, 2011 9:15:32 GMT
Post by superjock on Feb 2, 2011 9:15:32 GMT
t's all here www.gkr.com.au/. I have a GKR black belt who (sneaks away) comes and trains with me occasionally. Their kata are slow and a wee bit ponderous to me. We are all finished and he hasn't got to the first turn yet. Never heard of or even seen kin-geri before he trained with me. However he is quick on the uptake and with a few 'Andrew' adjustments can hit Sponge Bob as hard as the rest of us. I left his kata alone diferent doesn't mean wrong in my book He is coming on the Harry camp in May but his instructors aren't allowed and I think he has been banned from promoting it. Bloody nice lad and very dedicated to his training, just recently got his black belt. Not gonna mention names here Fleur I know you know him. Who the hell is Sponge Bob?? Another for the cheap training gear thread I think. It's a rubber pad similar to that Peter Consterdine uses. Bloody good in it's solid to hit and the holder also gets conditioning as well. Once somebody tells me how to put a photo on here I'll upload
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GKR
Feb 2, 2011 16:38:38 GMT
Post by fujicolt on Feb 2, 2011 16:38:38 GMT
if it is true that they attain dan grade certificates in a few months how on earth is this organisation getting away with it and why o why doesnt the UK governing bodies take legal action and expose this sham and danger to the public?
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GKR
Feb 2, 2011 17:44:47 GMT
Post by superjock on Feb 2, 2011 17:44:47 GMT
Don't think they can get black belt in a few months at least my mate didn't. I've heard that they get an honorary one to help instruct.......................apart from that,, it's all I know.
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GKR
Feb 3, 2011 1:25:06 GMT
Post by fleur on Feb 3, 2011 1:25:06 GMT
I think it was set up by an Austrailian called O'Sulivan. It seems to operate as pyrimid selling operation. Of the 2 people I talk to. 1 has been invited to attend an instructors class pay extra after about 6 months. It is a mixture of Shotokan and Goju in that you get all the heian kata and saifa etc as well. If there are not the numbers the class closes. It looks like you can teach classes and be a blackbelt in less than a year. Man I hate the word hate - so I will rephrase. I can not stand it when people talk total rubbish. This is why organisations get bad names. Because people believe the crash talk they read on the internet as gospel. Nothing of what you have said garage is true. GKR is a legitimate - sports karate organisation. Founded by Robert Sullivan in around 1985. It takes on average around 5-6 years to reach your black belt and they do not give them out easily. A high percentage will fail their first attempt and their gradings are long and grueling. If you get a black belt within this organisation you have worked very hard for it. The problem that people have with GKR are 3 things. 1. Robert Sullivan is a marketing genius and this has made him extremely rich! And people just dont like other people getting rich. 2. Due to the serious size of student numbers (because it is so family oriented and gets the mums, grandma, uncle bob and the dog) they simply do not have enough instructors to teach the classes so - here's the problem: they teach very unskilled people to become karate instructors. Superjock - they do not give them a early black belt - but what they do is give them an instructors belt (a black & white belt). They are still what ever grade they are be it 6th kyu or 4th kyu (yes I know - scary eh) but it's just that the people they are teaching don't know their true grade because it's hidden under an instructors belt - unless your brave enough to ask. And then they will tell you. So this is actually one of the biggest issues you will find with this system. Fairly unskilled instructors teaching others. 3. Door knocking - for some reason which is beyond me, most of the world finds knocking on doors offensive. I don't know why people just cant get over themselves. And yes you have guessed it - I know all this shit because I use to train there! I don't believe in bagging other styles - I think it is childish and a waste of my precious energy so I simply don't do it. But I do kinda get annoyed when people who don't know what they are talking about bag other styles. Oh and the other thing people might not like about GKR is that it is seriously sports karate - and to be honest they are very good at it. There training in this area is really good. They do very well every year in the National all Styles generally always taking out top honours. So if sports karate is not your thing - well that's just another reason to dis them. I was very lucky - I had some really good training from some very good instructors - I always made a point of only training under experienced instructors who I could actually learn something from. The problem for me and this is the reason why I left, so do many others - their system is limited. There comes a point in the training when you realise that there is something missing, it's like being a meat eater put on a vegetarian diet, it's just not fufilling enough - you need more. And the reason for this is probably because their focus is on sports karate and the majority of your training is aimed at this area. I reached this mark of needing something more at 4th kyu and finally made the move at 3rd kyu. It's hard leaving a club that is full of the people you love - but for many it is a necessary evil if you want true fulfillment on your karate journey. Yes Steve it is a mix of Shotokan and Goju - they do not do any of the Heian Kata. They do Taikyoku shodan, nidan, saifa, basai dai, seiunchin, empi, sanseru, sepai, hungetsu, kanku dai, karuranfu, shisochin, kanku sho, seisan, sochin and that's about it. I know quite abit about this GKR stuff, so without dissing them I am happy to answer any further question you may have PS. If it wasn't for GKR I would never have started karate, now that would have been a tragedy.
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GKR
Feb 3, 2011 3:30:30 GMT
Post by fleur on Feb 3, 2011 3:30:30 GMT
Sorry garage, didn't mean to sound so grumpy, it's just that you do hear so much crap over the internet that sometimes you just gotta say something. Didn't mean for you to get hit directly in the firing line. And yes I am sure that many have had bad experiences and I am sure that goes for lots of organisations not just GKR. But just to confirm - it is not a pyramid scheme and you can not reach black belt in a year. Peace. Osu.
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GKR
Feb 3, 2011 4:21:41 GMT
Post by fleur on Feb 3, 2011 4:21:41 GMT
For anyone that's interested, here is some footage I took at the last World Cup. These guys are just as passionate as the rest of us, they just love the sports aspect. This might give you a feel for what GKR is all about. It's not all bad.
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GKR
Feb 3, 2011 5:05:49 GMT
Post by fujicolt on Feb 3, 2011 5:05:49 GMT
Dear Fleur, I felt that this post was so important that I actually wrote it out on my word processor first so that I could edit it to ensure I was clear in what I say. I hope that i was succesful in that.
Firstly, I started the thread and I did so to try and gain some information. I therefore hope that you notice I have asked questions and stated things like ‘if true’. I know that you have not suggested otherwise but I wished to make that very clear.
However, in fairness I have to make it clear that I started this quest for information because I have become increasingly concerned regarding what I hear and have read about GKR. I have to also state that if the information is correct I am even concerned about the GKR website because claims it makes are quite simply untrue and possibly even illegally so. More on this below.
I have read your response and totally accept that you appear to have had a ‘to a point’ fulfilling experience whilst training with GKR. But even then your own information raises concern for me in regard to the GKR website claims;
Firstly, the site claims that Go Kan Ryu is a ‘traditional Japanese style of Karate’ with ‘A strong emphasis on ‘strong basics, Kata and Kumite’ - this is in itself appears to be a deception with a play on words.
The site, to the uneducated on first reading, is clearly alluding to an untrue claim that GoKanRyu originated in Japan.
Also, the claim to emphasize ‘strong basics Kata and Kumite, cannot possibly hold water if novice students, under the guise of a ’black and white’ Obi are teaching and taking money for doing so.
Now I know that a decent lawyer would argue - it should be read this way or that way etc but this kind of disingenuous advertising raises my concerns rather than allaying them. I am sure you can understand why - especially so when you appear to suggest that their emphasis is on ‘sport karate’ and not on a full arsenal of a truly Budo based ‘Traditional‘ style of Japanese Karate.
You also stated that ‘There comes a point in the training when you realise that there is something missing, it's like being a meat eater put on a vegetarian diet, it's just not fulfilling enough - you need more. And the reason for this is probably because their focus is on sports karate and the majority of your training is aimed at this area‘. Well Fleur in that case they can hardly claim to be a traditional Japanese Style of karate with a strong emphasis on the 3 K’s - again very disingenuous advertising in my opinion.
Especially so when they also claim to have a senior instructor whom has developed a strong sense of ‘etiquette, loyalty and mutual respect’ and this purportedly carries through to Instructors and students. May I suggest that misleading advertising aimed to attract people whom will be your students (paying students at that) is hardly mutual respect.
Fleur I think you were a tadge unfair to Garage because it looks as if that concerns about the GKR do appear to be based on solid ground.
It isn’t about ‘door knocking’ Fleur unless that door knocking is involving misleading information and followed up with the wholly inappropriate use of unqualified and inexperienced Instructors of very low grade to do the teaching. No ‘accreditation system can make a 6th kyu able to be competent enough to be teaching all grades and a full syllabus = simple fact.
Please, I am sure you understand that there is simply no way that an inexperienced low grade student should be passed of as a competent Karate Instructor - especially so teaching children as young as five.
Now - in fairness, there is poor Instruction to be seen outside of the GKR and that is fully accepted but with legitimate organisations these are in the minority and the organisation Seniors do, in my experience, move to correct this as it is usually highlighted when students attempt to grade or attend courses.
However, the GKR, if my understanding of their Instructor accreditation system is correct, not only allow poor and inexperienced Instruction they actually have developed a system to promote it ! - surely not something that anyone whom really has a love and respect for Karate would wish to see - let alone condone. I also believe that it leaves the thus accredited ‘Instructors’ wide open to legal action should a disaster occur due to their inexperience.
I repeat that I am still not fully educated about the GKR and I accept that but I have to state that even with my limited understanding I have concerns that are growing and in fact your post only heightened that feeling.
Fleur, in the posts and threads we have been involved in and the ‘chats’ we have had on Facebook I have come to know you as a truly enthusiastic karateka and for this reason I have tried to direct you to certain training and Instructors. So I hope you know that I respect you and your Karate but I feel that the more you train and become exposed to true Japanese Style Karate Instruction the more you may come to realise or feel that the GKR period of your Karate training was not as good as you currently believe it to be - time will only tell.
Also, the GKR may have been your first experience of Karate but that does not mean you would not have started if it wasn’t for them and think on it - wouldn’t it have been better if you had spent those few years studying a system that didn’t make you feel like a meat eater on a vegetarian diet because they truly did have a strong emphasis on Kihon, Kumite and Kata - taught well and increasingly expanding in content as you gained in Knowledge, skills and experience.
But heyho - forums are about debate and debate = disagreements from time to time, as long as we agree to disagree agreeably all should be fine.
I am absolutely certain you will enjoy your walk along the Karate path even more now Fleur because I know that you are very proactive about seeking out and going to quality courses and training etc and long may it continue.
I also suspect that when you have been doing so for 40+ plus years you also would have grave concerns if you felt there was an organisation that was misleading tens of thousands of students who may go ‘if that is karate I don’t want it!’. and then be lost to all legitimate Karate Dojo!
I know that if there is I am gonna be very concerned indeed and I know I won‘t be alone.
OSS
Steve.
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GKR
Feb 3, 2011 6:01:49 GMT
Post by fleur on Feb 3, 2011 6:01:49 GMT
Osu.
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GKR
Feb 3, 2011 6:13:27 GMT
Post by superjock on Feb 3, 2011 6:13:27 GMT
Bugger wish I had kept quiet. I don't like dissing styles, certainly wasn't my intention. Never even heard of GKR before my mate come to train with me and as I said he is as mad about karate as I am.
It is a natural progression after a few years to look outside your style, I have erred towards Goju because it suits my small frame:-) Not because I think it any better or worse than any other style.
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GKR
Feb 3, 2011 6:56:27 GMT
Post by fleur on Feb 3, 2011 6:56:27 GMT
Never dis the Easter Bunny - Agreed! He brings the chocolate.
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GKR
Feb 3, 2011 7:26:03 GMT
Post by fujicolt on Feb 3, 2011 7:26:03 GMT
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GKR
Feb 3, 2011 9:22:17 GMT
Post by fujicolt on Feb 3, 2011 9:22:17 GMT
and now back to the thread. Fleur you are not gonna like this but i have just watched the GKR Worold Championship Video (and I know Megan is in there so i hope my comments are taken in context here). Yes everyone is doing there stuff But Fleur if you think that is WORLD championship Standard then I am very sorry but it just isnt this IS past and present (watch them all Fleur and then view the GKR World championships vid again) do you honestly believe the GKR WOrld Championships fighters would cope against this - pls watch them all I could post dozens more: [youtube] www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7oh02Z59Oc[/youtube][video src="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoHNhTCMql4&feature=related[/b]"][/video] Tis not a dig at GKR Karateka I swear that but imagine if they had all trained from the start with - well a Traditional Japanese Organisation with good instruction all along - I think standards would be different in both Kata and Kumite
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GKR
Feb 3, 2011 9:38:58 GMT
Post by Dod Watt on Feb 3, 2011 9:38:58 GMT
Steve, I could watch Elwyn Hall all day, what a fighter!
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GKR
Feb 3, 2011 10:25:42 GMT
Post by fujicolt on Feb 3, 2011 10:25:42 GMT
Imagine those GKR Lads having him turn up - dear oh dear!
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GKR
Feb 3, 2011 10:51:54 GMT
Post by fujicolt on Feb 3, 2011 10:51:54 GMT
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GKR
Feb 3, 2011 11:28:48 GMT
Post by superjock on Feb 3, 2011 11:28:48 GMT
This is not a dig at GKR but a totally different style that will remain nameless. I trained with them for a few months under their 7th dan. I couldn't help but compare him to Andy Sherry (who was 7th dan at the time) and thought shit you wouln't last 2 seconds. So I moved on.
Frank Brennan trained with him in South Shields once, we were doing a front leg mawashi=geri thing.........." no try it this way" felt the foot brush my cheek but never even saw him move. Foot up and down never saw it. Terry O'Neil, Steve Cattle, Billy Higgins, Bob Poynton, Bob Rhodes all the same in their own way. Jullie & John Holdsworth, Christine Pullen the list goes on. England had some bloody strong fighters and yes they were fighters and quite often bloody. Don't think there is anything like that anymore. Watch this it'll give you an idea. I stopped doing competitions when they started taking dives and crying when a point was given against them. We only ever treated competition as extre training, not as the main event. Anyway enough "back in the day" enjoy.
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GKR
Feb 3, 2011 15:17:55 GMT
Post by kensei on Feb 3, 2011 15:17:55 GMT
Unlike some of you, I dont mind dissing specific things, especially if I have a personal story to back up my thoughts...... About three years ago we had a guy from Australia show up to train with us here in Winnipeg. Very nice guy, he was a "Sensei" and travelling on business and happened to find us through a mutual friend on the web. He came to the club and put on his Gi, one he was forced to buy from the organization and was not very good quality, we all kind of looked at the VERY Long jacket and wondered why he was wearing his big brothers top! Then the belt came out. it was black and had a long white stripe down the center. That all made us stop and scratch our heads. However, we took our spots to start class and the Cheif instructor asked him to sit directly behind him as a visiting instructor would. We did not ask rank or information beyond him coming from his own Dojo in Australia and being a head instructor for his area. Warm up showed he was a good athlete, but that was were the good impressions stopped. He had very weak basics, like white belt...just came in from the cold basics! His front kicks were horrible and he threw his punches like he was hell bent on falling over...NO STANCE! He did not know most of the Heian Kata and we all kind of thought that maybe he was from another style completely as I thought GoKan Ryu was the name of his Dojo! He knew Bassai Dai....Sort of....Sort of....Okay, not well at all and it was slow like Tai Chi and had some real strange changes. We broke off for Kumite and he looked like a dear in head lights the WHOLE TIME. It was sad! After, we went out for beers and he told us he had been a track athlete and went to join the GKR and was told right away to take the 3 month program to be a instructor when he got his yellow belt. he took a course a few miles away from his home and was made a instructor or "sensei". he admitted that the course was a bit like becoming a Tae Bo instructor with Billy Blanks. They give you a bunch of matterial to memorize about basic movement and some Rhetoric to use in class, but really you are expected to keep training with a instructor to grade and learn, but most dont. They treat the clubs like cash cows and send cheques to the head instructor and organization...and local "Heads" ergo...it is a pyramid type set up...if you like it or not! Amway the Karate way! I also saw Robert O sparring on youtube and I can tell you, dont care about his age BS and how he was much better when he was younger...I train with a 70 year old man that would make Robert look like a green belt...if that. The sparring was horrible and his Junior brown belt was OWNING him. Fact is that Robert created a marketing idea that took off...Yes that pisses off alot of people...because we know he is selling crap and making big bucks at it while we bust our humps to show legit Karate and make pennies. I have read, and again this is rumor, that he never got a legit Dan ranking or if he did it was only in Shotokan from a McDojo! He brought in his "Partner" who was a legit Goju Kai guy to give his system legs. GKR is the new Tae Bo. If that pisses you off its because you invested a tone of time into a style and just found out it was a fraud! I have seen some pretty bad stuff in my time, but really....I mean Really...Most of it was better than GKR. The door to door stuff does not bother me. Its a great idea. Robert had a lot of great ideas....to bad he is selling crap with his good marketing ideas! Again, sorry if this hurts or you think I am turfing a legit style of Karate....but seriously folks...that would mean it was a "Legit style of Karate" to begin with!
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GKR
Feb 5, 2011 12:28:11 GMT
Post by jimlukelkc on Feb 5, 2011 12:28:11 GMT
I have had first hand experience of GKR myself and have posted to that effect on other forums. My assistant instructor was with them for more than a few years and became very disillusioned. I too am sorry if my opinions cause offence but none of the negative comments or concerns voiced here are without foundation. This is simply poor karate, sold to the uneducated as legitimate and having all the substance of a Mcflurry. I am not over-stating things when I say it should be avoided like the plague.
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GKR
Feb 5, 2011 17:23:45 GMT
Post by kensei on Feb 5, 2011 17:23:45 GMT
Jim....it is never wrong to announce to the world that something is bad. If it is mearly oppion that you dont like what they do, you are allowed to defend your thoughts. personally I would never say sorry for telling others about this group...or any others that are so far off the beaten path. And every one reading this should realize it is our thoughts alone and if they want to check it out on their own then go and look and research.
The fact is that if a GKR person wanted to change my mind they need to come to me and show me why I am wrong, I will treat them with respect, listen to them and alter my thinking if I think they have merrit. So far all the GKR defenders have done to me in private is insult me and argue...which trust me...I am much better at with my experience.
The truth is that I feel GKR has no merit and those suckered into that farce are victims not students!
So, dont appologize for stating your mind. We all must state our minds on any subject we see as important, if we share our thoughts we grow as people. Truth is that I have learned the most from arguing with people like Steve and Rob Redmond...granted at least what I learned from Steve I have been able to use. ;D
James
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GKR
Feb 6, 2011 22:14:56 GMT
Post by fujicolt on Feb 6, 2011 22:14:56 GMT
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GKR
Feb 7, 2011 6:31:24 GMT
Post by superjock on Feb 7, 2011 6:31:24 GMT
My mate had these same 'light bulb' moments when he first started training with me especially when it came to hitting things. I let him hit me about 30 odd times with the instruction to "knock the wind out of me". Didn't happen............made a few adjustments in timing etc wouldn't let him do it now though...........
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GKR
Feb 7, 2011 16:15:22 GMT
Post by kensei on Feb 7, 2011 16:15:22 GMT
Got me researching now...so look out....just looking on the web I have read some shocking stories about the whole farce.... 1. Sulivan was a Goju ryu Nidan....after apparently 18 months of training and NO GOJU INSTRUCTOR WILL ADMIT TO TEACHING HIM! Much of his training was "Self driven". Go figure! He then had his own students "VOTE" Him a 7th Dan in GKR! Any one wanna put together a vote for ME! 2. One story was of a High ranking Go-Kan-Ryu instructor trying to get in some extra Sparring at a a local Dojo in the UK and they had to send her to the Newbie class as her basics were so poor they were scared she would get hurt! She was a local Head honcho who GAVE the instructor training! Way to go GKR! 3. Here is a good one....."Go-Kan-Ryu Karate is a traditional Japanese style of karate. The style was founded by Robert Sullivan in 1984 in Adelaide, South Australia – Australia. " Ergo....I have shoes that are more traditional that GKR! 4. Here is a good one...the name itself. Well, GKR was said to mean "Go-Goju, Kan- Shotokan, Ryu-style"...but two other things came out that made me laugh...first off Sullivan himself said it was actually a play on words for Kan-Go-Ryu...his favorite animal...and in Japanese Gokan....well it means rape...which they do to you for your money if you think on it! 5. I read that a guy with a few month of training, got his orange belt and then was asked to drop that belt and put on a black one with a white stripe and open as class after a few "Advanced" classes....dont know about you guys but NO organge belt is ready to teach in our organization and they are NOT going to be able to hang with and advanced class! 6. I was told on another forum that at the tournaments the GKR guys do very well and take home 99% of the medals...problem is that 99% of the competitiors ARE GKR...the 1% that is not...earns the gold! Go figure! 7. The "Sensei" title in GKR is used to show who the instructors are...you know the 7th and 6th Kyus that teach the classes...some of the class gang are actual brown belts and dont know that their instructors are really orange and green belts! 8. I was told by one of the "Sensei" on the other forum that their "STYLE" is "way to dangerous" to do full contact so they opt for NO contact......Right....or maybe its because they teach guys to be quick, with no power so they could not break tissue paper with a reverse punch. They also told me that they BAN guys who bang around in class as being to dangerous.....Show me a Orange belt that can teach me how to hit harder and I will show you and orange belt that was NOT IN GKR! 9. From WIKIPEDIA "NAS (National All Styles) - The UK NAS tournaments are mainly judged by the same people used in GKR tournaments as the tournaments are mainly run by GKR." So the tournaments they state they kick but in (even the 1% not GKR beat them) is at tournaments set up for and run by GKR people....I guess I would win trophies like a mad man if I had my students run a tournament for me and set it up so every weak thing I do is seen as a standard movement and my slow form because I am old is seen as "tempo controlled", and my excessive use of contact is seen as "True power" not lack of control because I am an old Git! 10. To put empasis on the whole pyramid thing. they use terms like "Regional manager"....strange were have I read that before...Oh, Yah.....AM WAY! Seriously though, that was a few hours of reading on line..>Can you imagine the trouncing they get from those that have been with them a while and woke up to realize they are throwing their money at a Tae Bo flunky that has no buisiness teaching Karate....but has a empire!
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GKR
Feb 8, 2011 1:33:30 GMT
Post by stevie on Feb 8, 2011 1:33:30 GMT
well Kensei - i am still researching but given your stuff found i have to say if this is true it is surely illegal - any comments from anyone on that point? sorry just to let you it was STEVE H who left this post he forgot to change to his own settings on my comp
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GKR
Feb 8, 2011 14:19:48 GMT
Post by kensei on Feb 8, 2011 14:19:48 GMT
While I dont have any cows to come home....I agree with Garage in this case. The thing is they really are not doing anything illegal on the surface.
Now if someone was to get hurt in a class they could sue saying that the instructor who was giving classes was ill trained and they have the burdon of giving a safe class. But I really think that is the only thing that one could "Stick" to them.
Paying someone for services that are given as promised is not illegal....they dont really say the instructors are high level at all...in fact everything I have read about them basically avoids the topic!
so, until these Morons hurt someone and they sue the whole bloody "company" they are going to skate on 99% of this crap!
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GKR
Feb 8, 2011 21:19:05 GMT
Post by jimlukelkc on Feb 8, 2011 21:19:05 GMT
Sadly true, we must wage a campaign of education for the masses! THEY WILL NOT THRIVE IN MY TOWN! Join me brothers and sisters!
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GKR
Feb 8, 2011 22:48:12 GMT
Post by fujicolt on Feb 8, 2011 22:48:12 GMT
sorry UK law is Law/legislation based not on an adhoc case top case base - thats why our court of appeal relies on 'errors in law' and i have said if some of the concerns are 'true' and evidencibly so then i believe there is legal argument from many directions.
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GKR
Feb 9, 2011 10:19:36 GMT
Post by fujicolt on Feb 9, 2011 10:19:36 GMT
they have, i noticed, been very clever in the manner in which some things are written but if the concerns prove to be true i am sure that there would be avenue - but then it would have to be officially driven or due to a 'tragedy case as you point out due to the huge expense of this kind of litigation... but there is more than one way to skin a cat
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GKR
Feb 10, 2011 14:29:56 GMT
Post by kensei on Feb 10, 2011 14:29:56 GMT
Oh, now we are talking about taxadermy!
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GKR
Feb 10, 2011 22:39:08 GMT
Post by fujicolt on Feb 10, 2011 22:39:08 GMT
Oh, now we are talking about taxadermy! i hope not sounds like a tax on zits!
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