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Post by fujicolt on Apr 5, 2011 22:25:27 GMT
Just latley I have being doing a lot of research for the book I am writing and I feel very sad to say it is showing me WE WERE TOLD A LOAD OF CRAP - for a very long time! anyone agree or disagree?
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Post by kensei on Apr 6, 2011 14:00:01 GMT
Just latley I have being doing a lot of research for the book I am writing and I feel very sad to say it is showing me WE WERE TOLD A LOAD OF CRAP - for a very long time! anyone agree or disagree? Depends....what are you talking about? ;D Seriously, I have been telling people this for year. My first 15 years in Karate I followed along, trained my arse off and towed the line, then I began to research...look into things and pretty much realized that we were not getting the whole story.... The next 15 years I tried to dig as deaply into the whole mess as I could. Not being a proffesional researcher, having school and then a job and family to focu on, I still managed to do 1000's of hours of research, contacted the Karate museum in Hawaii, did net searches, did interviews with as many old masters, asked questions and took Yards and Yards of notes. From what I can tell, most of the history we were force fed was crap, half the explanations offered were fertalizer and so much was omitted that I started thinking alot of the stuff we were taught was pure PUCKY! The only saving grace is when I punch you or kick you...it still hurts! I think that books like Harry Cooks ext and possibly Steves new book will go far in taking the crap out of our ears and putting some truth back in Karate training!
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Post by fujicolt on Apr 6, 2011 20:49:02 GMT
James tis clear that it DID HAPPEn but i am honestly trying to fathom - WHY! I have heard excuses from 'language probs' to racist reasons = 'Gaijin not worthy' to it exploded so fast the myths and bad practice just stuck cos we had novices teaching at Dojo's - which we did. We all remember green belts being considered high rank! Good grief!
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Post by fleur on Apr 7, 2011 0:00:06 GMT
After training in Shotokan for 25years and at 5th dan, my current Sensei switched to an Okinawan style - Matsubayashi Ryu. He has now trained in this style for 13years. I haven't yet been in the right setting to ask him his reason for the change. Maybe he to saw through the crap and myth and decided to seek a path of truth. Hell, I don't know. I'll let you know what he says when I build up the courage to ask him one day.
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Post by fujicolt on Apr 7, 2011 0:22:15 GMT
After training in Shotokan for 25years and at 5th dan, my current Sensei switched to an Okinawan style - Matsubayashi Ryu. He has now trained in this style for 13years. I haven't yet been in the right setting to ask him his reason for the change. Maybe he to saw through the crap and myth and decided to seek a path of truth. Hell, I don't know. I'll let you know what he says when I build up the courage to ask him one day. Fleur, two things 1. please don't read 'Disillusioned with Shotokan Karate Itself' into anything I write. shotokan Karate is, in my opinion a vary efficient style IF practised correctly. I was VERY fortunate and started with and then found other, very good Instructors and also have had to take my karate into the real world of violence and rely upon it. i have not found it wanting. BUT I am also very ANGRY (yes a strong word) about the nonsense that has occurred on a wider scale. I also know - from direct experience that there are other very good martial arts = not just other karate styles. So I totally understand anyone that changes there core art - i Know many that have. I chose to stay with my core art and really try to study it. it has served me fine. 2. Having learnt a bit about YOU and your fine attitude to training etc and having read your info about your instructor I hope this will be the case.... HE will have worked out your commitment and dedication and thus YOU will be perfectly within your rights as a loyal student to ask him questions AND I think he will gladly answer and do nothing but realise you are inquisitive and searching for info and that is a great characteristic in a student. Go ask Fleur
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Post by kensei on Apr 7, 2011 1:25:37 GMT
All styles of Karate have "stories" that are BS and I have found that some of the more "Traditional" Okinawan styles are just as bad....if not worse...and they tend to "infight" even more than shotokan guys do! I recall meeting a Goju ryu guy when I was fairly young and training with him and his father. The guys was from the Judokan lineage and was not bad at all. His breathing was easy to pick up on and he was very good at Kata but needed some work on Kumite. We once met a guy from Toronto that came to train in winnipeg who was a Goju Kai guy and the Cat fight was amazing. Dels father (my goju friend) was all over the fact that he did not like Gogen Yamaguchi, he said he was a liar and a fake. Man it was horrible! I can not think of a single Shotokan guy that I have met that had that kind of dislike for each other. Then their was the ryuie ryu guy that lied like crazy about his back ground ext and so on. ALL styles have issues with BS!
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Post by Bob Davis on Apr 7, 2011 10:51:30 GMT
I've heard my share of crap passed on, and can see how it happens both intentionally and unintentionally, (some stuff so laughable that you have to think why is everybody just taking it) but I still think the biggest BS line still used to fob students off is "just train".
If you don't understand the what and why of what you are doing then how will another 5, 10 or even 20 years of doing the same old same old without any explanation suddenly lead to enlightenment? absolute cobblers!
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Post by fujicolt on Apr 7, 2011 16:41:45 GMT
I've heard my share of crap passed on, and can see how it happens both intentionally and unintentionally, (some stuff so laughable that you have to think why is everybody just taking it) but I still think the biggest BS line still used to fob students off is "just train". If you don't understand the what and why of what you are doing then how will another 5, 10 or even 20 years of doing the same old same old without any explanation suddenly lead to enlightenment? absolute cobblers! eloquently stated BOB LOL! correct as well!
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Post by jimlukelkc on Apr 7, 2011 21:27:15 GMT
Just had a new student start my class. He trained in Shotokan some years ago but quit because he found it very regimented and repetitive but having heard good things about us he decided to give it another go. he trained Wednesday and confessed tonight on his second appearance that he had been counting the hours to the next class. I dont think I have ever been paid a finer compliment. The truth is not only out there but in our own hands too. Research is fine and necessary, the search for truth a noble quest but none of it matters without a thinking "karate " brain. We know when we are being fed BS. dont tolerate it or expect your students to swallow it
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Post by genkaimade on Apr 7, 2011 21:43:31 GMT
The thing that I really don't get about the so called karate in-fighting, is that from what I've come to see/believe, whether we're training in goju, shotokan, wado, kyokushin, whatever, we're pretty much all aiming for the same thing. I remember reading that even Funakoshi's generation used to send their students to other "karate" (inverted commas as I think I'm right in thinking that they were opposed to rigid stylistic categorizations) teachers to train under them.
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Post by fleur on Apr 8, 2011 1:15:11 GMT
Well put everyone. Lets face it, karate organistions and styles have one ultimate fault - they are run by people! And we, as creatures are far from perfect and policits and BS will exist, as you say, in ALL places. It's the nature of the beast. We just have to walk our own path the best we can and side step the paddy's along the way and maybe sometimes the pile of poo is so big we might just have to cross the road! As long as we're still heading in the right direction, I think that is the ultimate goal, no matter what mode of transport it takes to get you there.
Yes, Alex. Funakoshi did send his students to train under Mabuni. I think that was more at a time before 'style's' were inforced.
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Post by tomobrien on Apr 8, 2011 2:25:45 GMT
I don't hold any rank in Shotokan. I just love it. I never bought any 'crap'. I've trained with many guys from all different styles. James is right "The only saving grace is when I punch you or kick you...it still hurts!" Thanks, Tom
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Post by fujicolt on Apr 8, 2011 15:57:36 GMT
I don't hold any rank in Shotokan. I just love it. I never bought any 'crap'. I've trained with many guys from all different styles. James is right "The only saving grace is when I punch you or kick you...it still hurts!" Thanks, Tom Sorry Tom but i did giggle. at our age when we punch or kick someone it can (some days) be debatable as to who it hurts the most - us or them LOL!
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Post by kensei on Apr 9, 2011 21:27:50 GMT
Bert, I feel your pain! I would have to bite my tounge very time someone spewed some crapy fake science and call it truth....so much so that my tounge has scars!
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Post by fujicolt on Apr 17, 2011 0:14:06 GMT
When studying karate I was also doing Physical Education. I soon learned to shut up if I didn't want to be mocked. The ones the took time to explain. Those movements are going to damage you that is not good etc. With my degree from the university of hindsight some of the time they turned out to be right. I never took anything in a karate class at face value as a lot of it is crap. Even with the internet showing many correct examples many sheep still blindly follow the proveyours of crap without question which is very bad for your health. Engage your mind and in that crap are pearls. Go read Shotokan Myths by Yokota Shihan.
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Post by fujicolt on Apr 18, 2011 22:12:39 GMT
There should be a Myths of Physical Education as Shotokan is not alone in talking crap. Maybe tis a human condition - so many believe certain religious claims - for example - and just you try telling them 'that's crap' you may even get a war outa it!
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Post by kensei on Apr 20, 2011 13:07:34 GMT
In the library I was working it went back to the 40's and 50's there was a book on swinging wooden clubs for physical education, don't see many people do that any more. Some of the exercises would now be frowned upon. It seemed to be full of fads and fashions that with hindsight there is a later book that says why did we do that. Strange you say that. All the old things are coming back again...Yes some of the fads are funny and Old BS, but some are actually coming back. Swining a big ass heavy wood club is a great way to get upper body strength, core conditioning and even leg work if you do it right. Kettlebells have made a HUGE come back as has the 1970's Yoga craze. All things old are not wrong, there are a few gems in the pile! Trending comes along and we repackage it over time and re-sell it as something different, but it is the same thing with just a twist to it. Look at the old gymnastics exercises, I remember reading a book about doing exercises with the rings but at ground level to build upper body strength. its now the latest thing! All thing old are new again....Like steve with new hips!
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Post by fujicolt on Apr 20, 2011 16:57:18 GMT
lets call it OLD STUFF with benefits (due to better understanding and knowing how to be safe!) which - to me - sounds like a way forward.
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Post by kensei on May 18, 2011 12:50:05 GMT
Could not agree more. I do have to say that a few old things should be kept in the closet however. First off men in leotards (SP?) shoudl stay well in the closet...sounds bad but you get my point.
I fear for the day I show up to teach a class for one of my juniors and the whole front row is men in tights!
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Post by fujicolt on May 20, 2011 21:10:02 GMT
Jeez James - either you have some bad dreams or an unhealthily ripe imagination - the image alone terrified me! LOL!
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