|
Post by grunners4 on Jul 19, 2011 8:14:10 GMT
"It is my belief if you had enough time to perfect the bunkai for your kata like you perfect individual techniques such as gyaku-zuki, you would have a very effective arsenal. There are hundreds of techniques in kata we just do not use, because there has been such a heavy emphasis in training for gradings and competitive karate in most dojos." Bob Rhodes, SKM #108 July '11 Has the vehicle we use (the structure/syllabus/gradings) become more important than the actual journey/destination(learning to fight)?
|
|
|
Post by jimlukelkc on Jul 19, 2011 8:30:29 GMT
Ever since Funakoshi tailored Karate for children there has been a focus on attaining grades ( reward system ) and like children we are seduced by it. There is an argument for doing away with the belt system and learning for the sake of it. trouble is how do we test competence? It is not appropriate to test it through combat for kids and difficult to enforce for adults.
|
|
|
Post by superjock on Jul 19, 2011 10:32:03 GMT
" Has the vehicle we use (the structure/syllabus/gradings) become more important than the actual journey/destination(learning to fight)? My question is how do you structure it otherwise? I have no affiliations and have ceased following karate Gods. I am attempting to formulate a grading system based on what we have been working on over the past 3 or 4 months i.e. this is what we have been working on this is what I expect from you. Grade appropriate. I do have a set of basics that we go through most classes this is the core. Full range of punches, strikes, kicks and blocks. this is the base all else revolves round it. For instance we have been working on a drill that I tongue in cheek called Daidokan-no-kata lasts about one and a half to two minutes. There is enough matter in this drill/kata to pick out 20 or 30 sections and work them backwards forwards and the 360 degrees in between. Is what we have been doing. By breaking it down ike this examining footwork, body dynamics, distancing, angles of attack/defence etc. my goal is to get the principles of kata through to them in a way that they can work what ever kata they are studying in the same fashion. Seems to be working (for me as well). Can't do that marching up and down. Sparring will be tackled next......any ideas?
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Jul 20, 2011 2:06:05 GMT
our group adjusted our grading formats several years ago to broaden the arsenal of techniques practiced for each grade and it has worked very well.
We are, admittedly a small group and thus have time to really watch and evaluate students individually - Dan grades especially are awarded on performance over a whole weekends course. Students tell me they like it beccause they know they have been truly scrutinised and thus if they pass it feels a real achievement. anyone not passing is imediately given intensive help and information as to why to ensure they have all necassary to get through next time if they follow the advice. they invariably do.
|
|
|
Post by nathanso on Jul 20, 2011 6:05:17 GMT
One obvious way to avoid having the grading syllabus unduly influence what is taught or practiced would be to do away with grades and belts. Is an activity really worth doing if adults need an colored piece of cloth to inspire them to keep at it?
I frequently hear advanced karate folks say things like "Rank doesn't matter," often when they are admonishing more junior students. Yet how many of them would be willing to give up that rank and place in line and let people simply judge them on things like how well they perform or teach?
|
|
|
Post by superjock on Jul 20, 2011 9:50:29 GMT
One obvious way to avoid having the grading syllabus unduly influence what is taught or practiced would be to do away with grades and belts. Wouldn't be what is perceived to be karate then. We do need some plan for training.........once you have one it becomes a syllabus. What I'm looking for is a wee bit more reality attached to training, yet retaining the good form body dynamics footwork etc. I am slowly replacing some of the old methods like the marching up and down, doing thousands of reps in one go. I make up drills for just about everything and give the a name like the magnificant 7. Which is a 7 punch routine we do jodan chudan gedan, urazuki chudan, ura agezuki jodan, kagezuki chudan and mawashi zuki jodan. Performed in fud-sanchin dachi in 8 directions. Fun
|
|
|
Post by kensei on Jul 20, 2011 13:52:57 GMT
almost all martial arts and combat sports have ranks and grades, even if they are just titles they use. Karate does however seem to put an emphasis on grades and how much they mean.
In Brazilian Jui jitsu the grades are white, blue, purple, brown and black. The first level (White) takes about a year or so to go thru, I have read of some guys holding this color belt for two and sometimes three years. The instructor will give them a blue blet (sometimes after a test) once they have a good knowledge of the basics of their schools curriculum, their is no standard test or requirements however...seems to confuse the hell out of everyone.
The Blue belt is when a student learns to refine the basics and internalize them, make them a reflex. It can take a year or two to do this. Purple belt is an intermediate belt levele and can be a four to five year process. They learn the more advanced skill sets and they then move to brown. A Brown belt in most clubs is a teaching belt were they learn the advanced ins and outs of the curriculum. And then the black belt is the person who has mastered the basics, intermediate and advanced skills of the club. It can take 10 years to get a single black belt.
Now, the up side to BJJ ranking is that they dont really place a huge emphasis on rank as opposed to skill. I have read that a realy good purple belt will beat a decent black belt...and no one squables about it. I also read that a brown belt tapped out a very famous and accomplished black belt and did not even "earn" his black belt off that win.
Now the down side is that they put way to much emphasis on tournaments and because a black belt can rank someone up to brown belt with litterally no standards and a third and second level black belt can "make" a first level black belt, the standards are so squewed that Rank in BJJ is more about who likes you and who you get your belt from.
The ironic part is that they experience the SAME drop out rate as Karate does, so the argument that rank is a goal setting thing and that if we dont make someone a black belt in three years they will quit...its horse water! Apparently people will train for a decade to get a black belt in an art reguardless and will drop out if board reguardless, so to save face...perhaps it is time to get rid of a few colors and make it more difficult to test and get rank.
I understand when someone says that they get paid because they grade people...and to be frank...those people who are arguing this are exactl the people who should NOT be grading and testing others.
|
|
|
Post by nathanso on Jul 20, 2011 17:54:47 GMT
perhaps it is time to get rid of a few colors and make it more difficult to test and get rank. Interestingly, Ohshima's SKA still only has white, brown, and black.
|
|
|
Post by nathanso on Jul 20, 2011 17:57:05 GMT
Wouldn't be what is perceived to be karate then. It would be more accurate to say that it would faithfully represents early 20th century karate as opposed to modern commercial karate.
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Jul 21, 2011 14:53:54 GMT
One obvious way to avoid having the grading syllabus unduly influence what is taught or practiced would be to do away with grades and belts. Is an activity really worth doing if adults need an colored piece of cloth to inspire them to keep at it? I frequently hear advanced karate folks say things like "Rank doesn't matter," often when they are admonishing more junior students. Yet how many of them would be willing to give up that rank and place in line and let people simply judge them on things like how well they perform or teach? Totally get your point buddy but I am personally not against grades being awarded - people deserve recognition of their efforts and commitments as long as the award is justified. I have a student in Scotland whom was training with the Largest organisation (member wise) in Scotland. He went to a grading - was charged a large fee - and then went through a grading process that was literally like a conveyor belt process. He watched carefully as group after group got up to perform. He noticed that the examiner was not concentrating and watching closely and was merely churning them through to get them all done in the time they had. At the end of the grading he went up, handed his Kyu grade certificate back, told the examiner what he felt and left their group. He has been with us for several years now and under Dod Watts tutelage he has improved enormously. Grades awarded sincerely and after appropriate scrutiny are worthwhile but sadly this is often not the case. I could say more but am sure you have all seen similar!
|
|
|
Post by kensei on Jul 21, 2011 18:24:07 GMT
This kind of belt factory is becoming more and more common I fear. Again, I go back to the more modern martial art of BJJ and how they grade. Generally the instructors wait till they feel you are ready and hand you your belt. Yes their is some ceramony and some of the younger instructors "test" their people, some do two day tests however.
Point being is that when a buck is to be made some one will step up to find an easier way to do so...>Besides, would you want your black belt or even green belt from someone that does not know you very well at all....my not just go buy a belt when YOU fell you are ready!
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Jul 21, 2011 20:12:56 GMT
the 'splintering' that has occured in (for example) UK Karate has a number of downsides to it BUT for some students it has meant far better Instruction and Senior Grades whom do have the time to give them attention - FSK, ASK, SEKU and hopefully our group are examples. There are aothers but still some groups just churning them through!
|
|
|
Post by nathanso on Jul 22, 2011 6:37:36 GMT
I am personally not against grades being awarded - people deserve recognition of their efforts and commitments as long as the award is justified. I am not opposed to ranks and exams either, although as an old fart, I prefer the way things were when I started- white, green, brown, and black, rather than the whole rainbow that is prevalent now. However, what I don't like is what is referred to in the Bob Rhodes quote at the start of the thread,. As a basic educational principle, the instructor should teach what he thinks is important, and tests should examine the same things. If the grading syllabus gets in the way of what is taught, then the grading syllabus needs to be changed. Of course, when a club instructor is forced to change the content of his lessons from what he thinks is important to what is contained in a grading syllabus imposed by an organization, then he should question the value of that organization to his students.
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Jul 22, 2011 10:48:03 GMT
I am personally not against grades being awarded - people deserve recognition of their efforts and commitments as long as the award is justified. I am not opposed to ranks and exams either, although as an old fart, I prefer the way things were when I started- white, green, brown, and black, rather than the whole rainbow that is prevalent now. However, what I don't like is what is referred to in the Bob Rhodes quote at the start of the thread,. As a basic educational principle, the instructor should teach what he thinks is important, and tests should examine the same things. If the grading syllabus gets in the way of what is taught, then the grading syllabus needs to be changed. Of course, when a club instructor is forced to change the content of his lessons from what he thinks is important to what is contained in a grading syllabus imposed by an organization, then he should question the value of that organization to his students. Hear Hear Neil - this is exactly what we did about 25 yrs ago. It is very interesting in that we have had a number of occasions when we have (as we encourage an open door policy) senior Dan grades from other groups come along to train with us (either on courses or at our Member Dojo) and they are (I am proud to say) somewhat bemused but very complimentary when they see our Kyu Grades using a wide array of blocks and counterattacks in (for example) Ippon Kumite - Instead of the bog standard gedan barrai gyaku tsuki, Soto Uke Empi etc . In fairness it was the 'shock' of working the doors that created the mindset for me that much of the standard grading syllabus was alomost useless in terms of dealing with real violence. The dominant thing is that it is 95% mid and long range and a very limited arsenal. I am not suggesting that the standard grading syllabus content should be abandoned. No, it should be hugely expanded from beginners upwards - which we have with considerable success. I now I am far from alone in this thinking but sadly even the JKA england still have a pre-ordained written grading syllabus that members must not deviate from. tut tut as they say!
|
|
|
Post by stevenm on Jul 22, 2011 20:08:55 GMT
Whenever an instructor joins an association that will not allow him to grade his own students, or offers to conduct gradings 'on his behalf' he is obliged to teach their syllabus. With gradings every three months, he must keep the production line moving. He has effectively lost control of his club. Many associations are little more than money making schemes. Money equals power, and power equals money.
|
|
|
Post by grunners4 on Jul 23, 2011 10:48:42 GMT
If the grading syllabus gets in the way of what is taught, then the grading syllabus needs to be changed. As a teaching method I am not averse to a syllabus as a framework, but the needs of the individual need to be taken into consideration. Once during prep for an upcoming grading we were doing the requisite kihon ippon kumite and one of the guys was struggling to overcome a 'technical" issue. After blocking and before countering he would grasp the attackers limb (the one he had just blocked) for greater control. This is apparently not acceptable for his grade in kihon ippon kumite. According to syllabus at his level he should only be doing block and counter from a semi-static position, not looking for take-downs. Although this is encouraged at a higher level. He therefore spent the entire session trying to overcome something that comes naturally to him and will eventually need to be done regardless.
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Jul 24, 2011 18:33:53 GMT
If the grading syllabus gets in the way of what is taught, then the grading syllabus needs to be changed. As a teaching method I am not averse to a syllabus as a framework, but the needs of the individual need to be taken into consideration. Once during prep for an upcoming grading we were doing the requisite kihon ippon kumite and one of the guys was struggling to overcome a 'technical" issue. After blocking and before countering he would grasp the attackers limb (the one he had just blocked) for greater control. This is apparently not acceptable for his grade in kihon ippon kumite. According to syllabus at his level he should only be doing block and counter from a semi-static position, not looking for take-downs. Although this is encouraged at a higher level. He therefore spent the entire session trying to overcome something that comes naturally to him and will eventually need to be done regardless. this isn't just sad it is counterporductive and - am i allowed to say it - Frickin pathetic! Good Grief!
|
|
|
Post by superjock on Jul 24, 2011 21:21:48 GMT
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Jul 24, 2011 22:20:07 GMT
Andrew - I have had students in wheelchairs, and now many 'getting old'! Had one of them and his son here this weekend and we laughed and joked about this 'old age' not coming on its own. I am actually registered disabled now and can hardly moved - but we worked it out and got in my Dojo and did some stuff. If karate is meant to teach us to face all odds - surely we can work out how to overcome things like a disability - twas a great weekend - we all learnt stuff!
|
|
|
Post by superjock on Jul 25, 2011 3:55:55 GMT
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Jul 25, 2011 23:32:43 GMT
|
|
|
Post by superjock on Jul 25, 2011 23:45:11 GMT
Somethings but not all ;-)
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Jul 26, 2011 0:04:39 GMT
Hey Andrew - do you remember the Monty Python sketch when the medieval guy got his arms and legs cut off and was still wanting to fight! Haha! wife sauys that's me LOL! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
|
|
|
Post by superjock on Jul 26, 2011 6:23:34 GMT
|
|
|
Post by superjock on Jul 26, 2011 6:32:11 GMT
|
|
|
Post by kensei on Jul 26, 2011 12:05:24 GMT
The problem with modern shotokan is that it is so darn sports oriented. We give out rank to those that are "Fitter" and more able to present beutiful form. I recal one testing we had prior to us leaving a large group, the testing instructor..a very nice fellow by the way....was so star struck by this guys techniques that he failed to see the guy that was shorter and had less "Pretty" Techniques was mopping the floor with him in Ippon Kumite. It was more like he was looking at this guy as a peice of art! The way I look at it is the guy that looks nice but is ineffective needs way more work than the guy that has rough technique but can "handle" himself. I may be wrong.....but this is a fighting art right?
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Jul 26, 2011 19:42:03 GMT
|
|