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Post by Dod Watt on Oct 6, 2011 21:50:28 GMT
Kime, how do we translate it, does it mean power, does it mean focus. How do we transfer it, how can we break it down into layman's terms so that everyone can understand the questions asked above. I thought I would start this topic to get everyone involved, to put their input into what they think Kime is. What sort of training you do to enhance your Kime. I now look forward to see everyone's input to one of the main factors of our karate
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Post by fujicolt on Oct 7, 2011 10:59:55 GMT
if this is a ploy to get a copy of the Kime Chapter of the book Dod Watt - I'll consider it LOL! thinking of you and Kim today mate - hope and best wishes being sent to you via the ether my friend. X
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Post by grunners4 on Oct 7, 2011 15:35:51 GMT
It's an interesting one this, simply because of the variety of opinions. Those of you have trained with Enoeda, Kaze and Asai - would you say they all had the same kime in their technique? I am sure they all hit differently but still hurt!!! All had kime but it was how they used their bodies that generated the various means of power. I trained last year with Rob Ferriere and tell you what it was scary, he would demonstrate something in slow motion from only a couple centimetres and still rock you. The same applied a couple months ago with Wayne Smith (SAJKA instructor), he was doing the double ox jaw strike from Gojushiho sho on me - having his hands resting on my chest he proceeded to demonstrate the technique, I went over backwards onto my arse and back over again to land a good 3 metres away. Would 'hitting with intent' count as a definition? or is that too vague? I know it's not very technical but how do differentiate between the kime found in a bola head punch with a whipping action of a haito uchi or the 'percussiveness' of an empi uchi? They are different techniques and actions but all still make use of kime....but then again what is kime?
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Post by jimlukelkc on Oct 7, 2011 23:46:23 GMT
This thread will probably generate more questions than answers but I will have a go. I do not think it is anything mysterious; Kime is the application of a technique utilising the the correct muscles required for that technique in the correct sequence for that technique with applied tension after the technique has gone through is target to prevent over-reaching or imbalance and with the correct application of breathing for that technique, all of which will vary, depending on the technique.....or not.
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Post by superjock on Oct 8, 2011 3:41:05 GMT
Kime is the application of mind, body and spirit. Mind this is where the intent bit comes in. Body relates to full body power. Spirit is putting your whole being into the technique.
Timing and length of kime have a direct relation to what you are trying to achieve i.e. thrusting, striking, kicking, blocking or grappling. In thrusting striking you generally want to leave the application of full body power until the last 4 inches (100mm) ish. That's the usual theory (dives for cover waiting to be told it isn't) however I have found when facing the makiwara that applying the full body contractions about the half way mark (on the outward flight path) delivers more 'shock wave' power. Punching air will never give you this feedback the dynamics are completely different. If you are looking for somewhere near effective techniques you need to do both (for balance). However for kicking I'm such a big awkward bugger trying to minimise tension is what I need. Usually evens out somewhere near the punchy principles. Grappling requires more constant force at times hence the longer breaths. If I find a long concentrated breathe in kata I usually ask myself is this for grappling or has some bugger changed it ;D
With impact you are probably looking at full tension at the end of the technique (i.e. through the target) just long enough to do the job and move on 'return flight' etc. Grappling (I do recognise that there is relaxation and tension in this as well) you need a longer concentrated effort in order to you achieve your goal. Thus duration of breath and application of kimi may be longer.
There is more than one way to breathe, you need to find what works for you experiment a bit. Just remember you need a balance of speed, power and technique.
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Post by fujicolt on Oct 8, 2011 11:32:15 GMT
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Post by Paul Bedard on Oct 8, 2011 17:49:40 GMT
Oh man! I can see that `relax, relax, make strong, relax, is just to simple!! Some good explanations here. Relax, while executing the technique, total body contraction ( connection ) while delivering the technique ( this includes locking the anus ) focusing power through seiken tanden, then immediately relax. Not near as in depth as some of you well studied karateka!! Osu Paul B
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Post by superjock on Oct 9, 2011 9:30:07 GMT
Looks like all is not lost after all
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Post by tomobrien on Oct 10, 2011 1:10:46 GMT
I asked a Japanese friend of mine & he said it means "making a final decision". Like setting a 'drop-dead date' or set an exact time for completion. He said that, in martial arts, it's like having a punch, kick, block or even a stance fixed/focused into location. Thanks, Tom (PS - Paul, I don't think that locking Steve has anything to do with it)
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Post by nathanso on Oct 10, 2011 5:32:17 GMT
I asked a Japanese friend of mine & he said it means "making a final decision"... My understanding also is that kime comes from the Japanese word meaning decisive. I don't think that there is anything mystical about it. Too many people think that having "kime" in a technique means having excessive tension that impairs effectiveness. Too many people mistake how a technique feels when done in the air with how much damage it would cause when it actually hits something.
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Post by Paul Bedard on Oct 10, 2011 16:21:01 GMT
Tom, Tom, Tom, you are bad! ;D And that is my final decision. Osu Paul B
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Post by fujicolt on Oct 11, 2011 10:07:24 GMT
Tom O you cheeky Sod - so that's what you think of me - AN US having been friends for so long PMSL! I didn't miss your wicked attack even if Paul B did - he is a gentleman Cannuck - you New York Gangster!
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Post by andyupton on Oct 11, 2011 18:15:52 GMT
Well, if I remember correctly, Sensei Frank Cope once told me that "Kime is the concentration of all the muscular power in your body FOR AN INSTANT, at the moment of impact, then we release the tension and relax".
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Post by superjock on Oct 11, 2011 18:16:37 GMT
I have fetched this over from the ''Full Body Power'' thread. We call it`KIAI` I`ve seen many even saying kiai when they are doing it. This is dumb. To say `kiai` is actually two syllables. Much to long for the point of kime. I kind of use `ai`, just one sharp sound from the tanden through the diaphram.. Osu Paul B In my opinion the kia should come naturally with no set length in time. To paraphrase Balloo the bear (I draw my inspiration from diverse sources) , it should come from the toenails and reverberate through your whole body. I aim for it to start just as I am about to apply the juice and finish on the return to kamae. Yes I double kime at times once when striking and again on the return kamae, which I use as a block/cover.
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Post by fujicolt on Oct 12, 2011 20:34:55 GMT
Mmmmmm..... to ensure i am not misunderstanding andrew please expand your point - I have several concerns about long drawn out kiai but am possibly misunderstanding you.
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Post by Gaz Lee on Jan 17, 2012 0:20:57 GMT
instant and immediate energy! i thank you!
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Post by fujicolt on Jan 17, 2012 3:35:29 GMT
i CAN ABSOLUTELY GUARANTEE THAT THE BEST WAY TO GET MOST DAN GRADES OF 3RD dAN AND ABOVE TO KIME CORRECTLY IS - to make them do a basic kata at full correct speed BUT tell them NO KIME! those whom have been over exaggerating the muscle tension simply cannot stop doing it but they tone it down whilst trying to and their Kime hits what it should be - hear the Gi's cracking away! Try it next time you teach senior dan grades! or ask some of my long term students whom post here 'How it changed their Kime'. Have fun! On another note - how many of you practice different forms of kime - as in: focused, transient, dynamic movement or transited for examples?
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Post by kensei on Jan 17, 2012 14:47:43 GMT
i CAN ABSOLUTELY GUARANTEE THAT THE BEST WAY TO GET MOST DAN GRADES OF 3RD dAN AND ABOVE TO KIME CORRECTLY IS - to make them do a basic kata at full correct speed BUT tell them NO KIME! LMAO, NO KIDDING> its actually funny how many black belts do this.
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Post by grunners4 on May 2, 2012 9:15:23 GMT
How much of a contributing factor is 'air-punching' (as in kata/kihon) to incorrect kime? Working on the bag the other night I noticed how my techniques were more relaxed, regardless of what technique it was (kizami-zuki, kage-zuki, mawashi geri etc). With the bag there was something to absorb the energy and so I could 'let go', and was therefore more relaxed. They also 'felt' more powerful, although that is not based on any hard scientific data.
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Post by fujicolt on May 2, 2012 13:41:10 GMT
IMHO it is the lack of bag and pad work that contributes to the clear lack of understanding of what kime is, and how it should be performed that is responsible for the over exagerated 'Heavy Kime' that developed in the west. purely coincidently I am working on an article for this forum that actually discusses this issue.
I decided to write the article after discovering (in my Attic) an old video tape of me teaching over 2 decades ago and in the class i am discussing this very issue. In the tape the Dan grades were struggling with getting rid of 'Heavy Kime' and relaxing to let the power generate into the target. I recently taught the same set of Dan grades and in the article discuss the differences in thier skill now as opposed to 2 decades ago. Watch this space!
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