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Post by Bob Davis on Jan 1, 2012 23:11:33 GMT
Sorry, wasn't sure whether to leave this in "Concepts & Theories" as per the original thread Read more: ourshotokanstudies.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=concepts&action=display&thread=724#ixzz1iFSH0ZJuor put it here, it seems to err on the philosophical side so this is where it's going to go, (and it is a rehash of something that has been discussed many times before in a variety of places, I am aware ). Firstly to set out my stall (as I've probably done many times before, I know ) I am what I refer to as a "hobbyist karate-ka", I am one of those people who didn't take up karate in order to defend myself or deal with violence. I study the art for it's own sake and because it interests me. I say that just to point out that I understand very much that there are many reasons to come to karate training. Having said that I am tending more and more as time passes towards the idea that the, for want of a better term (as I don't feel either comfortable or competent in applying it to myself) "Warrior" mind set is very much a fundamental part of karate training. I spent a pleasant evening just before Christmas with a number of other black belts discussing the what and why of our training over a few pints of ale. It is very apparent that, even at black belt level, there are still many reasons for training and many are happy that they are comfortable in their training, they enjoy the art, the exercise, the camaraderie, the mental challenge and physical exersion etc... but it also became apparent that having got to this stage they did not want to be pushed any further, did not want feel "at risk" or go to the stage where the ability to actually deal with violence became part of their training, in fact despite the paying lip service to karate being a martial art I don't think they see that side of it as part of their training at all. Now I'm not expecting that to change any time soon as (as has been previously said elsewhere) as long as people are taking something positive out of their training then good for them BUT that then leaves me with the question of what Karate is. If the development of the correct mindset in order to be able to apply your karate should the need ever arise is a fundamental part of the art (even if not your reason for training) and you choose to ignore that side as it is not what you are comfortable with in your "happy place", is what you are learning actually Karate at all? As I have said before, the ability to deal with violence was (and probably still is) low on my list as a reason for my continued training and I have no problem with doing a large amount of my training within my "comfort" zone, however, unless you address this side of the art I think you are leaving a big hole in your study. What does everybody else think on this? Is Karate without intent actually Karate at all?
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Post by fujicolt on Jan 1, 2012 23:31:09 GMT
No and stop plagiarising my Book ! LMAO!
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Post by Bob Davis on Jan 2, 2012 0:01:39 GMT
Sorry Steve, The combination of the recent chat's I've had around here and your e-mail probably set me off, not used to having time to sit and think recently, it's obviously not good for me (and I've probably been spending time in the wrong company as well ) I'll own up to stealing your terminology (that's what you get for sending it to me) but I do think on my own time too Nice short answer though, although I was sort of hoping for a slightly longer debate on the subject You need to get the book finished and out there (I could use the material ) No pressure but I have a birthday coming up soon and Stella's looking for ideas.
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Post by malk103 on Jan 2, 2012 0:13:54 GMT
Is it Karate? I suppose you would have to define exactly what Karate is first.... If you only want to exercise and learnt/practice the art in Karate then that should be acceptable as well as those that want to learn the sports/Kumite side more. I have to doubt anyone who says they will refuse to use any techniques to counter violence, when all else has failed and there is no escape and you were about to be clobbered then I think anyone would fight back with everything they had. I started for the exercise but I have gained confidence in myself, I would be very worried about being attacked - i'm not saying that now I push through a gang or group of people, I would still cross the street or go around - I just feel safer.
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Post by fleur on Jan 2, 2012 2:53:15 GMT
I didn't start karate to learn self defense. Honestly, I started because I needed to do some exercise and thought doing karate would be cool. And I was right! But what I have discovered as I have progressed is that it is way better than cool. But still after 4years, self defense is only just becoming part of my karate vocabulary. And that is only because one of my Sensei's is very much of the thinking that it all means nothing if you can't apply it. So he is slowly installing this into me. But only just. If it wasn't for his mind set I would be happy practising my technique, sweating my arse off to keep in shape, working my kata and exploring history. I have never felt yet that I have acquired enough skill or confidence that would allow me to defend myself... I think this is healthy, I hear of to many orange belts after 6 months of training thinking it is OK to walk home at night alone, because "they do karate!" I simply don't know the answer to be honest Bob. I hope I never have to find out if these years of study have paid off in respest to the self defense aspect, but hoping if the situation did arise that I might surprise myself. I think you can study karate from varing aspects. While competance in self defense may be the meaning of karate to one person does not mean it dimenishes the meaning of karate to a practitioner who practises for the purpose of culture, history and lineage. I think karate has much to offer. We don't all necessarily embrace it for the same reasons, nevertherless we all benefit from it in one form or another.
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Post by fujicolt on Jan 2, 2012 12:34:23 GMT
I was actually teasing you Bob - this should be an excellent thread. I hope people remember that the question you posed was not Did you start Karate for the ability to use it in a real SD situation? nor was it: Do you do Karate to gain the ability to use it in a real SD situation. Your question is: Is Karate without intent actually Karate at all? Read more: ourshotokanstudies.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=philosophy&action=post&thread=734&page=1#ixzz1iIsRwsQFtherefore my simple answer of 'NO' is my position on it. As you know I have written pages about why I take this stance in the chapter you recently critiqued for me - I may post some extracts here - let me think about it Oh and Plagiarise away my friend - to be quoted by you is an honour!
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jan 2, 2012 14:29:22 GMT
Karate without intent is callisthenics. As a way of keeping fit it is dubious and there are definitely more efficient ways to do it. This question inevitably brings us around to another question, "what was Karate originally intended to be? ". There is debate about this too but my understanding of it was as a civilian method of combat intended as use against unskilled or semi-skilled opponents. My personal opinion is if we take away the" intent " we reduce it to the status of " Boxercise ". Making all the right shapes is not Karate.
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Post by fleur on Jan 2, 2012 19:50:11 GMT
Steve, that link you provided just takes you through to a - reply message box.
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Post by fleur on Jan 2, 2012 20:03:05 GMT
In relation to the initial post - if you are to train with only intent in your karate you are not training in shingitai (mind/technique/body) only gitai (technique/body). It is up to the individual what they choose to develop and train in. If you go far enough back into history there was more to their training than destroying someone with their bare hands. A greater essense to their survival was developed through a deeper understanding of what it takes to walk away/endure. If gitai was the last resort only then would it be used. You can argue all you like that karate without intent is not karate. At the end of the day it is simply your opinion or your personal interpretation of what you know it to be. There will be no right or wrong answer on this one, because your karate is your karate. It's a good topic for discussion, but it is that alone.
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Post by nathanso on Jan 2, 2012 20:38:54 GMT
You can argue all you like that karate without intent is not karate. At the end of the day it is simply your opinion or your personal interpretation of what you know it to be. There will be no right or wrong answer on this one, because your karate is your karate. It's a good topic for discussion, but it is that alone. That is the key point IMO. I think that it is pointless to argue that someone is not doing real karate because they don't practice SD techniques, they do kata as performance art without applications, they only practice competition sparring, they do kata to music, etc. People have their own preferences and prejudices about what they want to do and how to do it, which may change over time. The important thing is to know what and why you train and find the clubs and/or instructors that allow you to achieve that.
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Post by Bob Davis on Jan 2, 2012 20:46:21 GMT
Hi Fleur,
Sorry if I misunderstand but surely training with intent IS almost solely training MIND/body/technique. Training technique and body only is the issue really, as Jim put it you can "make the right shapes" but you have not trained the mindset required. Very often the knowledge that you can call upon this mindset if the situation requires is what actually gives you the ability to "walk away/endure"
If you ignore this part of your training then when the last resort IS called for then you will not have the ability to respond and if, after many years of training you still lack that ability to respond have you really been training in Karate?
Whilst I agree it is only part of the whole (and as I've said before, very far from the only part for me) it is frequently the part that is woefully neglected these days because it is the least comfortable way to train.
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Post by Bob Davis on Jan 2, 2012 20:58:27 GMT
Again, no real disagreement BUT then that leaves us with no real definition of what Karate actually is and so we must refrain from pointing the finger at the martial dancers in their spangly pajama's as their karate is just as valid as ours as long as it's "what they want to do". Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against people doing what they want to do for whatever their own reasons are but are they doing karate?
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Post by nathanso on Jan 2, 2012 21:06:19 GMT
They may not be doing your (or my) version of karate, just like I may not be doing theirs.
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Post by fleur on Jan 3, 2012 1:26:00 GMT
Bob, I think we may have a different understanding of what the shin represents in shingitai. My understanding of it is to train the mind/ the inner self/ in the art of restraint/self discipline. The art of maintaining calm, the ability to access, weigh up and contemplate. To refrain from violence and understand the power in that. This too could be seen as training with intent. Intent to avoid violence. I do not disagree with you that should you need to implement technique that ideally your training has been in such a way that it does actually work. I agree it is an important part of training karate, but only part of the whole in my opinion. I think maybe the clarification might need to be on the word ‘intent’. I believe what you are probably trying to say is do you physically train in a way that you could take someone out, shut someone down and have the correct mental attitude to give yourself permission to do it. Some people naturally have that ‘dog’ in them and therefore training technique to use effectively comes naturally. But I think there are probably many like myself that would not naturally desire to end a confrontation through violence and therefore it does take continued training under the right instructor to install some of that ‘dog’ aspect and the self permission to use it if ever needed. I agree that this is the ideal situation, but if one is not able to achieve it, I don’t believe it diminishes their efforts in their pursuit. I don’t believe because someone has not met this particular standard you can turn around and say, well that’s just not good enough, you’ll have to give what you are practising another name because your version of what you practise isn’t up to mine. I know you guys have been doing this a hell of a lot longer than me and I humbly respect your abilities and view points, but I personally don’t believe karate is purely about kicking and punching and knocking someones block off. I can feel it in my bones - there’s more, much more. And I’m gonna just keep chipping away at the mountain. I thank you for allowing me as a novice to express my point of view without dissing me and making me feel small. It allows me to continue my thoughts and exploration into this amazing subject. Respect & Peace
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jan 3, 2012 16:07:08 GMT
Fleur you are absolutely right, it is so much more than punching, kicking and knocking someone's block off! Training the mind is as large a part of martial arts as it is in any sporting endeavour you might wish to name and the pursuit of that mental control and restraint is as important as being able to "switch on" mentally if things should escalate to violence. If it was not then we would be unreasoning thugs with no regard for our fellow man. We covered the aspect of spirituality in another thread and whilst I do not personally subscribe to that, I think there is certainly room for the practice of karate as a form of moving meditation. However I still hold the view that the kind of "Karate" taught and practised by some of the "McDojo" out there are not by any definition of the word a martial art and as such are not Karate. As for allowing you express yourself, as in the Dojo, we are all equal here and your thoughts and opinions are as valid as anyone's. I am sure that these are not rigidly held beliefs and like many of us you are open to reasoned debate so lets all learn from each other!
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Post by Bob Davis on Jan 3, 2012 18:06:46 GMT
Fleur I would reiterate what Jim said, your opinion is as valid as any ones (and definitely as valid as mine ;D) We're all a "novice" to someone. No, I think our understanding is the same (or similar) but my argument would be in this particular case (if I felt the need to argue that "refraining from violence" is done from a position of power i.e. "I could do this but choose not to" rather than "I cannot do this therefore I have no choice" and mine. I think that is a fair assessment You and me both I think the key word there is effort, I have no problem that some people will never achieve this for what ever reason (I may well be one of them) but what I see is the tacit agreement that because of this we don't even try to cover this side of the art in our training, this is not the fault of the student who walks through the door if the instructor is not teaching this (or even giving you the option). Again I will say that for me also there is a lot more to karate than just punching and kicking people (BUT that is a part of it ) We are back to what I often hear which is "people won't train like that any more" which I think more likely translates into "I don't want to (or cannot) teach that"
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Post by fujicolt on Jan 3, 2012 20:31:53 GMT
We are back to what I often hear which is "people won't train like that any more" which I think more likely translates into "I don't want to (or cannot) teach that" Read more: ourshotokanstudies.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=philosophy&thread=734&page=1#5488#ixzz1iQfD99Uxyou could not be more wrong on that one! HS rulesw, change in attitudes and a society that tends to litigate makes it difficult - NOT a 'don't want to' or 'cannot' situation. Those of us that still attempt to teach a MARTIAL art have to be very thoughtful beforehand - Maybe when you get to the stage of teaching you'll understand
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Post by Bob Davis on Jan 3, 2012 22:33:45 GMT
Possibly Steve but I do speak from first hand experience in our own clubs at least. I have seen the change happen over the last 14 years even, the training used to be hard and physical and the room used to be full. The training is now comfortable (although taxing on occasions) with mostley the same people but less than half the number. I have been told "people don't want to train like that anymore" but I don't know who these people are. I may well have missed something that made us take a step back but ......
I appreciate that it needs to be carefully thought out and controlled but is it really just down to the "where there's blame there's a claim" culture?
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Post by fujicolt on Jan 4, 2012 4:51:55 GMT
those that voice 'people don't want to train like that these days' or 'Karateka today wouldn't cope with how we trained back in the early seventies' can very easily discover that they are veru wrong by simply attending one of the friendship courses I host several times each year.
I have watched all of you train your guts out, showing awesome spirit and determination for hour after hour over the weekend (i think the highest was 18 hrs in 3 days)
AND despite the intensity of the course you all come back again and again.
I admit i have had people say things like 'I have never trained like that before' or 'I was nervous before the course i had heard it was such tough going!'
But invariably they say 'I loved it and learnt a great deal' and 'Ill Be Back!'
You have all shown me that Karateka of today are just as tough as yesteryear but OFTEN don't get the TRAINING TO DEVELOP IT imho!
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Post by karajutsu on Jan 4, 2012 9:59:36 GMT
Is Karate without intent actually Karate at all?
I look at it this way , which karate ? karate do? or karate jutsu ? modern karate from the itosu era was developed as a DO art ,formed in the shape of kendo and judo .training for the mind and body to build strong spirits into young adults for preparation for military service. If we look at the karate which most people on the world train in it will be the DO . all the effective dangerous techniques taken out to allow safe training and the inclusion of body protection. the intent in modern karate is a sport not for self defence . karate jutsu on the other hand, the intent is self defence .
just some thoughts , i am not the best at putting things down in writing ,i hope you get the idea !
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Post by fujicolt on Jan 5, 2012 1:45:03 GMT
Hey Mike I think Karate can be both - I competed for over 20 years and loved it but I also had to have a Karate that would sustain me on 'the Doors' and have had that as my dominant aim for over 40 years. The secret is knowing the difference
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Post by karajutsu on Jan 5, 2012 11:57:15 GMT
Hi Steve . i agree with you on all of that. I have to the street side and the dojo side both compliment each other .
mike
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Post by tomobrien on Jan 6, 2012 3:28:37 GMT
If you're not trainin SD you're in la la land Thanks, Tom
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Post by fujicolt on Jan 6, 2012 3:55:40 GMT
When I ran a full time Dojo and Gym back in the 70's I employed a Lady to conduct 'Aerobic' Classes as one of the activities in the Gym. She was also a professional Dance Instructor. Incredibly supple and fit. she had unbelievable body co-ordination. As an experiement for her Dance work she asked me to teach her a Kata. She jut wanted a general Idea of the movements. She came in one afternoon and i spent time just teaching her the fundamental shape of the movements in Heain Yondan. However, she was so physically gifted via her Dance training (she had been a professional Ballet Dancer and also dnace in theatre) she picked up the 'form' of the stances and techniques VERY quickly, for example she picked up stance form easily and her kicking form in Yoko Geri Keage was immaculate after only about 3 attempts! After about 3 hrs of practice she asked did I have a Karate Suit she could borrow so we could take some photos for her portfolio Gi on she performed Heain Yondan several times and she was (in terms of form and even speed) as good as some I have seen attempt and pass some 6th kyu gradings! SHe could have convinced Non Karateka that she was a Karateka - especially when performing high kicks!! However, I she did ask if she could try some Kicks against the Punch Bag (I had also shown her Mawashi Geri and Yoko Geri Kekomi all of them she showed really good technical form very easily). I let her use the bag and - She was absolutely useless - no sense of distancing or timing. She could not kick with any focus or power. Importantly she had no concept of aggressive fighting spirit. A pure example of 'Karate' with NO Martial Intent.Visually impressive but in SD terms absolutely useless!! and finally before you ask - yes I have got some of the Photos but i have no idea where they are and I AM NOT gonna crawl around in my attic for 4 hours looking for them !! Haha!
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Post by kensei on Jan 6, 2012 13:14:23 GMT
Steve, that story reminds me of my sister. She was/is a dancer. when we were both kids I was learning Heian Yondan (purely chance I must say) and she watched me do the Kata a few times and started doing the Kata beside me. I had to reference the Best Karate book a few times and kept trying to figure out the why while I was learning the what.
It made me mad that she memorised the Kata as a dance before I figured it out.
Years later I am still doing Karate in my 40's but she is no longer dancing. she says Dancing is for young girls/boys not older ladies. She has just now gotten back to do some "fun dance things" but she gave up on dance except for fitness. The difference again is I can do Karate till I die!
And much like your story she had not idea how to hit something and Kumite was a very scary thing for her to even watch.
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Post by malk103 on Jan 6, 2012 15:39:14 GMT
That's a very good analysis Steve.
Today I saw a clip from a competition, the first guy kicked to the head and won a point but the second guy managed to grab his leg.... To me the second guy "won", so long as he wasn't too injured by the kick he was then fully in control of the kicker and if semi skilled could probably put the first guy on his backside.
Going through the kyu stages I think there needs to be a transition at some point from going through the motions and performing the moves. I've started to notice a few that are still going through the motions at 4th/3rd Kyu.
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Post by nathanso on Jan 7, 2012 1:38:03 GMT
Years later I am still doing Karate in my 40's but she is no longer dancing. she says Dancing is for young girls/boys not older ladies. She has just now gotten back to do some "fun dance things" but she gave up on dance except for fitness. The difference again is I can do Karate till I die! You sister could have kept on dancing, but I think that dancers tend to be more aware and/or more concerned about the effects of age on performance. I think that things that a karate-ka may care about like strength and endurance decay at a much slower rate than speed and flexibility, so us OFs can delude ourselves into thinking that we our still near our prime.
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Post by fujicolt on Jan 7, 2012 2:34:13 GMT
Premature Rigourmortis Immense Muscle Erosion is that what you meant by our PRIME NathanSan LOL!
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Post by nathanso on Jan 7, 2012 6:35:30 GMT
LOL.
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Post by Gaz Lee on Jan 16, 2012 21:47:37 GMT
for me karate is as much about self discipline as self defence! i trained hard, 3 times a week for 5 years religiously! not to compete but because i wanted to be good at it, i did however enter one competition as teenager and won 1st place, (trumpets please) and stopped training a year after gaining shodan, i felt i'd hit a peak and wasnt progressing any further, (i was young and nieve) so i started kick boxing for a bit fun, then boxing, and now i have returned to karate. i think as you as reach dan grade you have to train with intent, as you should be training alongside very capable karateka and have a duty to enhance eachothers training by putting in full effort, a key principle of karate in my book! and you''ll never know if you could use in real life situations unless you have to, unforunately i did once, and i found it very effective! but i try to focus on the self discipline more than the self defence.
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