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Post by kensei on Apr 4, 2012 13:08:15 GMT
Okay, simple question and I dont want a "either" or a "well both have their points" kind of answer here gang.
I was teaching Ippon kumite the other night and doing counters to Mae geri. The demo went something like this...Student steps back left side down block, steps in after calling target and kicks with their left leg......I moved to my right, shifted into a front stance, blocked and threw a reverse punch to Jodan...I moved to the persons OUTSIDE as it were.
Now the class was actually very large and some people were their from other clubs and a gasp came up over the members from one particular club. I noted the shock and knowing it was not my beautiful techniques or great looks....I had to ask one after class why the gasp and concern.
After class a student told me that they were taught ALWAYS to move to the inside, with punches or kicks...move to the inside. That was explained that you then had better targest to pick, like the face, chest and groin.
The next night I began class with a Ippon work out again, the group was mostly all the same and I did the same thing but the instructor from the other club called me over and told me to NOT go that way as he never taught it that way...now being me, and in my own club....I went back to finish the demo part with one of his seniors ( a tall young black belt kid around 24), I showed the instructor and his students how I was much safer doing it this way as the counter from the attacker would be slower and much more difficult, then I showed them three counters, a punch to the floating ribs, a strike to the back of the neck and finally a foot sweep and downward punch, rolled into an arm bar!
Now, the other instructor was not happy, but my question is....do you guys advicate inside or outside when stepping...keep in mind this is only Ippon kumite at this point.
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Post by malk103 on Apr 4, 2012 13:32:34 GMT
I think i've done both....
Talking with farely limited experience, I have practiced inside (with side step) and counter attack to chudan area. Also outside with counter to side/ribs and head, also remember one stepping backwards.
The technique I liked the most was stepping outside and hooking an arm under their knee, other arm attacks to neck as you lift/push them onto their backsides.
I think moving Outside makes more sense as you limit their attacking limbs that they can use on you. If you can see a kick coming and can react quick enough then moving would make the most sense, also moving to an area to avoid the following attacks.
It does sound a bit narrow minded to say that one is wrong though, unless everyone accepts a list of set routines as the gospel and ignores anything else.
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Post by jimlukelkc on Apr 4, 2012 14:21:14 GMT
You say you do not want an either or both answer, but..... that is the answer! Use manji-uke as a throw counter to mae-geri and you need to move to the outside ( mostly). Move inside and you have a better target choice but more chance of being hit. move to outside and you still have a good choice of target ( kidneys, sympathetic trunk, base of spine, back of knee, sweeps , throws and takedowns, rear choke or strangle, base of skull, temple.....bigger choice of target? maybe not! ). As for being told not to teach a certain way! How rude!
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Post by fujicolt on Apr 4, 2012 15:56:33 GMT
Good Grief!! - to restrict or dismiss the teaching of ANY defencive possibility is not only wrong; it is stupidly wrong and is IMHO a clear example of an INstructor whom has NO IDEA about the reality of actual unarmed combat. Stick to your guns (and ANY practical and more importantly prcticable use of them!) James. The claim that you are 'safer' going inside is also plain ignorant as the reverse is actually true in terms of limiting your opponents ability to 'press' his attack with further attacks. The claimed lack of fewer targets is also absolute poppycock! - I do despair sometimes at the theoretical bulldung that some instructors come up with - pure naivity in the full sense of the word! Someone needs to write a book about these glaring holes in SOME Shotokan Instruction - OH, forgot - I have!! I don't think it is gonna make me popular in some Instructors minds but heyho I think i have put enough info in there for people to understand the reasoning for the points i have made. Have a whole days photo shoot lined up for the book very soon - should be an interesting day as we are doing video shoots same day which will also be available on line! James on this one YOU are totally correct in your reasoning and full instructional program - but i expect you'll have a rough time getting such woefully wrong theorists to 'get it' good luck!
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Post by kensei on Apr 4, 2012 18:37:46 GMT
Thank Steve,
I would never dismiss any defensive training as you never now what you are going to get into or what possition you are in when the poppychock hits the fan!
However, to insist that the angle they select is the only one is ignorant...and to think that guy is my senior in rank! Wonder if he had been in a real fighter ever...wait, no he has not. And to train specifically against a idea is stupid...just wanted some clarification I was not losing my mind....er wrong!
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Post by fujicolt on Apr 4, 2012 19:45:10 GMT
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Post by ruestir on Apr 4, 2012 19:57:22 GMT
While going "inside" on a person will give you more targets, the problem with it is that you are now fully exposed to your opponent's weapons too! "Outside" is obviously safer as you reduce the number of ways your opponent can strike you back.
Rule #1: Don't get hit! Rule #1a: Reduce the number of ways you can be hit! Rule #2: Hit back harder!
Now, it's not to say you can't or shouldn't go "inside", but you better be prepared to deal with a lot more coming at you. I prefer to limit my opponent to a finite number of options. In ideal, 0, but realistically 1 or 2.
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Post by fujicolt on Apr 4, 2012 20:05:46 GMT
Very much to the point Alex and an example of how we must build in innate 'aims and desired outcomes' into our training but realise that there are NO absolutes and the secondary elements of any given situation can (and almost invariably will) mean we have to instantly adapt to what evolves!
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Post by Dod Watt on Apr 4, 2012 21:43:49 GMT
In my opinion James what you did was good use of tai sabaki, you evaded his attack and used his own movement to manipulate your defence for your counter, going round your opponent puts them into a vulnerably position, for example, their sight is more impaired, giving you more of an advantage!
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Post by Paul Bedard on Apr 5, 2012 16:44:26 GMT
I find this interesting. As I have had a similar experience as James. I for quite some times had bee working my students to go to the outside of the opponents body when attacked. Particularly for the reason of limiting the weapons that can be used against you, but also generally easier to escape the situation. Another instructor has questioned my thinking, by explaining that the inside offers more targets. I explained not really just different targets. After a debate, I told him that he can teach his way & that I`ll teach mine. I like to work both directions as some situations dictate what position that you are in & not limiting your experience helps to make for better split second decisions. I do like going to the outside on defending mae geri for example as it makes it a longer path & easier to see if the oponent throws a rear leg kick, also if I angled away he has to turn more to find the target making it harder for him & therefore quite posibly limiting his connection. Also if we go to the outside when say we step forward using soto uke , we can continue the momentum & spin around using empi uchi & be behind the oponent, really limiting his weapons or in the case of multiple opponents have him between us & the others. There are strong points for both lines of thought outside or inside, limiting ourselves doesn`t make sense... Osu Paul B
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Post by maico18z on Apr 5, 2012 18:19:37 GMT
Last evening we did this very thing. Ippon Kumite, both stepping inside and outside. The pros and cons were explained and we practiced both. Neither was said to be better necessarily, just different depending on the situation. From a relative new guys perspective though, I can see why many of us at this level feel more comfortable stepping inside. The target is familiar. Up to this point, we mostly have been stepping straight back to defend, then countering. And as we are going straight back we are facing the opponent head on and presented with our choice of a wide array of targets, head, torso, groin etc. It would seem, especially to a lower rank, that we have more targets but when I thought about it and as others have said, there are not more, just different and for us, as newbies, when confronted with going outside, very unfamiliar targets. I started paying attention to the targets I was countering going inside and discovered that possibly because I was presented with such a "large" target, I was not concentrating on the effectiveness of my counters so thus I was striking "off target" more often than not, being sloppy in other words. Going outside, I was forced to be more accurate as the targets seemed smaller. So then, I started to re-think countering to the inside, being more accurate with my counters much like I had to going to the outside. Going outside also helped me develop some techniques I was not familiar with such as countering with a back fist with the blocking hand, sliding in with the elbow etc. By the end of the evening I felt very comfortable moving to the outside and actually seem to prefer it now. These are the ramblings of a 4th kyu so coherency is optional. G. Coulston
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Post by malk103 on Apr 5, 2012 19:52:37 GMT
It's good to hear all comments and from all levels so thanks for the input. It makes it more interesting when you look at other possibilities other than just hitting a target, we did a few Kumite routines tonight, both inside and out. A great follow on to the original Mae Geri block outside is to move forwards along their side and connect with the attackers throat with your arm, twisting them over your hip. ^^^^ Think you might have to use your imagination for that explanation..... The good thing here is most of us are learning from this but it seems we all have the open mind approach which is even better. I have to constantly battle at work against people whos attitude is " But that's the way we've always done it!" Very frustrating!
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Post by Bob Davis on Apr 5, 2012 20:34:18 GMT
It's an old story but very relevent to the way a lot of things are done, particularly (but not exclusively) in the karate world. A scientist puts 5 monkeys in a cage from the ceiling of which is hanging a banana, under the banana is a step ladder. One of the monkeys starts to climb the ladder to get to the banana, immediately they are all sprayed with ice cold water and the monkey gives up. Then a second monkey makes the attempt and the same cold shower ensues. This happens until all the monkeys get the idea and none of them attempt to get the banana any more and the water jet is removed. At this stage one of the monkeys is removed from the cage and replaced with a new monkey, this monkey goes for the banana but is immediately attacked by the other four, he very soon gets the idea "don't go after the banana". Now a second of the original monkeys is removed and replaced with a new one, when the new one goes for the banana all the other monkeys attack (including the one who has never been sprayed with the cold water). This process is then repeated with a third and fourth monkey with the same results. Finally a fifth monkey is put in the cage and when he goes for the banana he is attacked by the other four, even though none of them have every been sprayed with the ice cold water (which was the original deterrent, if you can remember that far back . When the fifth monkey turns to the others to ask "why do you all attack me when I go for the banana" all they can say is "that's the way we've always done it here" It's a silly story but illustrates a point and, sadly, is a behavior that is very common in the karate world. "How dare he question they way we do things, we've always done it this way, even though we've never understood why we do it this way or even thought to ask (in most cases)" Monkey see, monkey do! Personally I'll take my chances with the cold shower and have my banana
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Post by malk103 on Apr 5, 2012 22:07:15 GMT
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Post by fujicolt on Apr 6, 2012 0:47:33 GMT
Last evening we did this very thing. Ippon Kumite, both stepping inside and outside. The pros and cons were explained and we practiced both. Neither was said to be better necessarily, just different depending on the situation. From a relative new guys perspective though, I can see why many of us at this level feel more comfortable stepping inside. The target is familiar. Up to this point, we mostly have been stepping straight back to defend, then countering. And as we are going straight back we are facing the opponent head on and presented with our choice of a wide array of targets, head, torso, groin etc. It would seem, especially to a lower rank, that we have more targets but when I thought about it and as others have said, there are not more, just different and for us, as newbies, when confronted with going outside, very unfamiliar targets. I started paying attention to the targets I was countering going inside and discovered that possibly because I was presented with such a "large" target, I was not concentrating on the effectiveness of my counters so thus I was striking "off target" more often than not, being sloppy in other words. Going outside, I was forced to be more accurate as the targets seemed smaller. So then, I started to re-think countering to the inside, being more accurate with my counters much like I had to going to the outside. Going outside also helped me develop some techniques I was not familiar with such as countering with a back fist with the blocking hand, sliding in with the elbow etc. By the end of the evening I felt very comfortable moving to the outside and actually seem to prefer it now. These are the ramblings of a 4th kyu so coherency is optional. G. Coulston Mr/Mrs/Master/Miss Coulston or whatever you are (and I hope to get to know) you have just given an excellent explanation from your 'relatively new' so assumed to be relatively low grade, perspective which amplifies the main point here. Our job as Instructors is to - over time - give you and help you understand thereafter a VERY wide range of solutions to being attacked. there is NOTHING wrong with an Instructor saying - 'practice this way (for now) and when conversant with that we shall move on to this, and that, and that etc and so on and so forth - BUT to simply go 'THIS is THE Way' is nonsense. You Mr, Mrs, MIss, master or whatever (Teehee!)clearly get it! look, listen and learn and keep that up - eventually it all comes together!
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Post by maico18z on Apr 6, 2012 17:11:10 GMT
Well, you can call me Ray, or you can call me Jay, or you can call me whatever, but you don't have to call me mister.. Guy will do. Thank you. I'll be back. Guy Coulston
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Post by fujicolt on Apr 7, 2012 11:21:37 GMT
Well in that case - Hello Guy, great to have you posting in the Land of OSS!
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Post by Paul Bedard on Apr 7, 2012 16:51:41 GMT
Yes hello; Ray, Jay, `Guy`!!! Glad to have you aboard. Rambling from 4th kyu karateka is most welcome. You are at a great level in your training as the next being a brown belt. I find that this is an easy student to work with as they want that brown around their waist real bad!! I`m sure that you train hard & ask really good questions. So please offer your opinions & ask questions, we all can learn from people who want it!!! Osu Paul B
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Post by tomobrien on Apr 17, 2012 1:04:24 GMT
Paul is right! You have more targets on the inside but you are safer on the outside. You MUST be able to go both ways, stepping in & stepping back IMHO. Thanks, Tom
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Post by kensei on Apr 17, 2012 13:02:53 GMT
Paul is right! You have more targets on the inside but you are safer on the outside. You MUST be able to go both ways, stepping in & stepping back IMHO. Thanks, Tom Wow, thats almost a quote of what I said Seriously, given the preference, I would much rather go "outside" and take his back area/side, than inside and face his many weapons. But yes, you must be able to do both, you dont always dictate how the situation unfolds.
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Post by Paul Bedard on Apr 18, 2012 1:35:25 GMT
The reason that I thought that this was interesting was that Kensei had a very similar experience in this regard. When I first red his post I thought `wow that is almost the same as my experience`. Cool Osu Paul B
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Post by tomobrien on Apr 20, 2012 20:29:21 GMT
Paul is right! You have more targets on the inside but you are safer on the outside. You MUST be able to go both ways, stepping in & stepping back IMHO. Thanks, Tom Wow, thats almost a quote of what I said Seriously, given the preference, I would much rather go "outside" and take his back area/side, than inside and face his many weapons. But yes, you must be able to do both, you dont always dictate how the situation unfolds. Take his back! Excellent point! Thanks, Tom (let's see if Jonny 'Bones' Jones can do that to 'Sugar' Rashad Evans Sat. nite)
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