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Post by kensei on May 8, 2012 12:18:31 GMT
I have read alot about other arts in my 30+ year journey in Karate and other arts and I found that their is a rather new, but very feirce, activity that has crept into training...Disrespect for other arts.
I have read that when Funakoshi went to Japan it was common practice to respect other martial artists no matter what they studied. Case in point was the deep respect that Funakoshi and Kano had for each other. Actually I have read of many masters in various arts that got along grandly.
Mabuni and Aikido's founder had a strong realationship as is shown by Mabuni working with Ueshiba on Kata for His Karate and I have read about many Kenjutsu masters who sent students to study with various Karate and Judo men.
Many students of Judo and Kendo traveled and trained in Karate, Kase and many others came from a Judo back ground and the Kodokan endorsed their training in Karate.
fast forward 60-80 years and we have Thai boxers calling Karate Crap, Judo men saying that Tae Kwon Do is horse poop, Karate guys dissing other Karate styles, Boxers yelping they could bash a Karate guy, Aikidoka saying Judo is to rough and does not work on the street and BJJ Bashing just about everyone!
The fact is that the art is irrelevent in most cases. I have seen guys that were so friggin gifted that they could beat a person senseless if they trained in tiddly winks!
Before we bash other styles we need to take into account that they all have something to offer.
I have my Shodan in Judo and recently took up rolling around on the floor with....er BJJ. I do it to simply learn how to get my old arse off the floor if a young guy wants to keep it their! However, one of my friends that does this art started bashing Traditional Karate one night. He was saying how unrealistic it was...by friend I mean one of the many young kids that like to try and keep me flat on my back and twist my limbs till something yelps...normally me.
After about a half hour of this 19 year old punk saying stupid stuff and showing he had no idea what the heck he was talking about, I stood up and asked him if he had ever been in a Dojo before? He had not but once watched the Karate kid...the new version! After explaining that A) that was Kung fu and B) we dont dance like that he asked me to proove it.
Once kick to the jewels and I have a believer. He tried to move in to grab me and I simply reminded him what parts of his body were great targets, once kick to the family makers and then a ridge hand to his temple and he buckled. Keep in mind he wanted to harm this old guy and prove a 19 year old with three years of BJJ was better than a 40 year old with 30+ years Karate....He wants to start taking classes next week!
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Post by malk103 on May 8, 2012 13:39:24 GMT
Well done for "converting" another.....
I have been disrespectful to others in the past but mainly due to their standard and not their flavour. Some are being fooled into believing they can defend themselves because they have graded several belt colours.
I find it very annoying on places like Utube where people try to compare the styles by 1 fight between practicing artists and normally draw rubbish results. I also find that people that say bad things about Karate haven't studied it enough to understand it, we have a disillusioned Brown belt at the moment who lost a scuffle the other week and is now wondering what 3+ years of Karate was for.
I get the impression that many of the Martial Arts over lap if you train to a high enough level, there fore practising others should be actively encouraged to enhance and broaden your own skills. In theory we are all doing the same thing with different techniques?
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Post by Rob S on May 8, 2012 14:27:37 GMT
An art is an art. And arts take a long time to master or understand. I had studied karate for 43 years when injuries/health seriously curtailed me. I started Iaido.
I can honestly say that I am still involved in karate, although more in an advisory capacity, BUT I learned more about my karate in the first 3 years of Iaido than I realised. I learned about my own art. My understanding of my art grew from the exposure to another.
My wife has been an aikido-ka for the past 7 years - she is ... wait for it .....a 5th KYU. Every time I offer my hand to let her practise she grins and twists it on .. so I don't offer it any more. Every time I watch her perform/train I see the possible kata implications/applications from my own art.
Disrespect is bad manners, and closed mindedness stops the learning.
We should always remember Shoshin, and keep learning along the road we travel.
When we are so good we can 'diss' the other styles and arts, it would be obvious. We would be a 'Soke' and start our own ryu-ha somehow. As that is not about to happen, we should be happy to share , watch, and learn.
Personally I love Shitoryu karate - its kata. But I am a Shoto stylist with some Shito influences from my competition days, where Akio Minakami was the unbeatable one, so we copied him to try and get close to the trophies.
I guess I have always kept my eyes open and hopefully my brain in a acceptance mode.
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Post by Bob Davis on May 8, 2012 22:17:06 GMT
Don't have the details (obviously but if you can't defend yourself after 3+ years of training then I'd say that "disillusioned" is fair enough and says a lot about the state of "modern" karate as a martial art, (this isn't a pop BTW, I know enough people in blackbelts with many more than 3 years of training who would have no idea if push came to shove ) Most of the karate-ka I know still show respect for other arts (although it is hard with some of them ) but it's a competitive market out there and this is just another sign of the times (although I seem to recall nearly 40 years ago karate instructors diss'in other karate instructors because "you need to follow sensei xxxx, 'cause all the others are rubbish!"
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Post by malk103 on May 9, 2012 8:34:43 GMT
Actually it's over 4 years as he's been 1st Kyu for ages, he's sort of in limbo as he's not shown enough fire to go for Shodan and we can only push him so far. His effort level and attendance have dropped, unfortunately he only likes certain aspects of Karate and finds Kata boring. I suspect if he put more effort in he may have won the scuffle, or would have learnt not to be there.
It is a shame that a lot of modern Karate is more like dance movements but also difficult to teach aggresion to some.
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Post by Bob Davis on May 9, 2012 11:16:51 GMT
Not sure aggression is the right term but "Mindset" is certainly used in various discussions. I think that correct mindset is probably one of the big ommissions from general day to day karate training in many places, where martial "dancing" has become the accepted norm. Steve H. certainly has a number of drills, techniques and exercises that he uses to teach correct mindset, worth discussing with him if you are at the SKFC in June (if he cane make them work on me then he can make them work on anybody as I'm probably the least confrontational or aggresive person you'll ever meet
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Post by malk103 on May 9, 2012 12:44:38 GMT
Yep - not the best word for it.
I have read one of the drills and look forward to the FC in June to experience as much as possible.
The best lesson I have had lately involved Kumite and SD drills to get the adrenaline going, then Kihon and Kata which was naturally done with more power and focus.
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Post by kensei on May 9, 2012 13:01:29 GMT
It has been my experience that one gets out of Karate what they put into it. If they come here looking for "how to fight" and they put the time in you get some really good fighters. If they come here looking for how to defend themselves and do very little...well they get very little back.
When I was working the door at the bars I noted that some people are natural fighters, some are skilled fighters that developed through hard work. It almost did not matter what style they were training in; boxing, Karate, Tae Kwon Do or Judo.
I also noted that some styles develop bad egos in their students through being "we are better" kind of styles. But the majority of the time the Good fighters were egoless and pretty quiet and you could tell they put long hours in working in their arts.
I have seen bad practitioners and weak groups...but for the most part it is not the style that makes the man...but that man that makes the style.
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Post by th0mas on May 9, 2012 16:03:15 GMT
...Disrespect for other arts. I have only one thing to say to that...
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Post by fujicolt on May 17, 2012 0:14:23 GMT
Great to see that you are upholding the high level of contribution to reasoned reasonable debate on this site Tom and particularly guarding the very important concept that 'We mustn't take it all too seriously and lose our sense of humour! LMAO!
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Post by dek1 on May 23, 2012 17:56:45 GMT
Is it realy any wonder some within Karate disrespect other arts when some dont even respect each other. I was talking to an old friend and he was asking about my progress in karate then proceeded to tell me to get out of the association I am in and join another as they practice real shotokan. Now if this is how we view each other what chance do other arts have.
On the point of a 1st Kyu and his fight on the street, surely he will have gotten out of Karate what he has put in to it. If he does not train and adapt the moves to fighting someone who will not throw a punch in a certain way or a kick in the way we practice basics then he will always loose. Add to the adaption of our training if he does not have the experience of being hit and giving a hit he will struggle. Lastly maybe someone should point out there is always someone better, harder, quicker than you and sometimes no matter how hard you train you a get a kicking.
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Post by fujicolt on May 23, 2012 19:52:25 GMT
quote author=dek1 board=concepts thread=865 post=6952 time=1337795805]Is it realy any wonder some within Karate disrespect other arts when some dont even respect each other. I was talking to an old friend and he was asking about my progress in karate then proceeded to tell me to get out of the association I am in and join another as they practice real shotokan. Now if this is how we view each other what chance do other arts have. On the point of a 1st Kyu and his fight on the street, surely he will have gotten out of Karate what he has put in to it. If he does not train and adapt the moves to fighting someone who will not throw a punch in a certain way or a kick in the way we practice basics then he will always loose. Add to the adaption of our training if he does not have the experience of being hit and giving a hit he will struggle. Lastly maybe someone should point out there is always someone better, harder, quicker than you and sometimes no matter how hard you train you a get a kicking.[/quote] Derek, you as a stated Karate Novice make some very valid comments but if i may be so bold may i suggest that you step back a little and widen the possible context of some of the scenarios etc you use/comment upon There are I assure you, legitimate times to suggest to a fellow Karateka 'Change your location of training as the group/organisation you are with are not delivering the best of Karate instruction' (a key example being GKR! but there are others). Also there are times when the group/organisation are OK but the Local Dojo in question is not! Fewer but still existing. IN your case and Dojo of choice I know this isn't the case but you then stated Now if this is how we view each other what chance do other arts have.Read more: ourshotokanstudies.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=concepts&action=post&thread=865"e=6952&page=1#ixzz1vini9wNawhich kind of suggested that you feel such comments (suggesting a move to a better place) are never appropriate - Sadly sometimes they are You then stated: On the point of a 1st Kyu and his fight on the street, surely he will have gotten out of Karate what he has put in to it. Mmmm ..... I would suggest that 1st Kyu's get out of Karate what thier Instructors put into thier training program as they (the 1st Kyu's) are the recipients of the program NOT the designers of it Therefore, your following pertinent points kinda lose gravitas! If he does not train and adapt the moves to fighting someone who will not throw a punch in a certain way or a kick in the way we practice basics then he will always loose. Add to the adaption of our training if he does not have the experience of being hit and giving a hit he will struggle. ON your final point whilst kinda valid it actually in a way states - 'Don't bother training cos yer cannot win as there is always someone better than you!' You stated: Lastly maybe someone should point out there is always someone better, harder, quicker than you and sometimes no matter how hard you train you a get a kicking. Do you not think that 'train to achieve YOUR BEST POSSIBLE level of skill - it may save your life, or the life of someone you love dearly, one day BUT don't fool yourself as you will never acheive invincibility so also train to learn how to avoid danger as well! Don't get me wrong here Derek as initially I kinda agreed with you but the 'Kinda' led me to consider it further and that i suppose is the whole aim of this site - to make us all think - SO .... thanks for your interesting post I hope you understand my points and acknowledge that I totally accept the validity of many of yours
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Post by elmar on May 23, 2012 21:05:32 GMT
All unarmed martial arts practice the same art: 2 hands, 2 feet, 1 head style. If you like "Ryo-ashi Ryote Shomen Ryu". In the "old" days, this was accepted as self evidently true. The "art" was merely the vehicle for learning, not the thing learned. That has imho been forgotten. In the "old" days, you sent your students to other sensei; nowadays you are deathly afraid they will even look at other students of other arts. Money is destruction of communication. </curmudgeon mode>
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Post by malk103 on May 23, 2012 21:34:04 GMT
In the case of the 1st Kyu that I mentioned then Derek has got it right (IMHO). Others have progressed and 2 have been pencilled in for their Shodan in August, but 2 haven't, including said 1st Kyu. The other one is battling between another sport and Karate practice so hasn't put in the time. Sometimes the attitude when training is that of wanting to be elsewhere and only engaging with certain parts of the lesson. I think all students should go off and train with as many others as possible, even different styles or MA's, but not be encouraged to leave or swap orgs. I have been off to Bath and Wells recently to train with others, deepest Somerset is next.
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Post by fujicolt on May 23, 2012 23:20:39 GMT
All unarmed martial arts practice the same art: 2 hands, 2 feet, 1 head style. If you like "Ryo-ashi Ryote Shomen Ryu". In the "old" days, this was accepted as self evidently true. The "art" was merely the vehicle for learning, not the thing learned. That has imho been forgotten. In the "old" days, you sent your students to other sensei; nowadays you are deathly afraid they will even look at other students of other arts. Money is destruction of communication. </curmudgeon mode> Whoa Elmer! (my bold emphasis in your Quote above) Whom are the YOU that you refer to here. My original Instructor (John Tattum always encouraged us to train with other Instructors and actually brought them to us - it is an approach I have ALWAYS followed - I also host OPEN Courses to allow others to come along and train with various Instructors (some of my students and some whom attend such courses post here so i hope they verify this) SO back of a bit with your claims because this 'YOU' definitely doesn't fit your wrong stereo type and I know personally many whom do not either! Having said that I absolutely agree with many of your points just don't be so literal and all encompassing with claims that are not so!
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Post by fujicolt on May 23, 2012 23:38:27 GMT
In the case of the 1st Kyu that I mentioned then Derek has got it right (IMHO). Others have progressed and 2 have been pencilled in for their Shodan in August, but 2 haven't, including said 1st Kyu. The other one is battling between another sport and Karate practice so hasn't put in the time. Sometimes the attitude when training is that of wanting to be elsewhere and only engaging with certain parts of the lesson. I think all students should go off and train with as many others as possible, even different styles or MA's, but not be encouraged to leave or swap orgs. I have been off to Bath and Wells recently to train with others, deepest Somerset is next. Mal, you are an Instructor now so you have to have some paradigm shifts..... Firstly, part of the instructors duties are to instil a good training attitude into students and this must be done way before !st kyu. However, we also have to accept that our students ARE NOT signed up for 3 rs JKA Instructors Class Students - ours are hobby students whom have lives and other interests also Some become totall absorbed and committed and that never leaves - they are actuall amongst the rare! With others - Sometimes other things take over and they step back - some return and do really well - some never do = fact! Finally When as a young Teenage 1st Dan - new to instructing - I became - shall we say intense - about others NOT committing totally I got a piece of advice from a very unexpected source it was my Dear Mother and she said: 'Son, I have watched you with this Karate thing and I can see you are very committed to it and I am pleased because I can see that it has been very good for you in many ways but you have got to understand Son that not everybody is going to embrace it with the passion and commitment you have!' Go chat to yer Mum Malk, I'd get mine to phoine yer but she sadly passed away a few yrs ago! You're gonna be a fine INstructor Malk - yer too intense not to be LOL!
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Post by elmar on May 24, 2012 0:41:31 GMT
... nowadays you are deathly afraid they will even look at other students of other arts. ...; Whoa Elmar! (my bold emphasis in your Quote above) Whom are the YOU that you refer to here.) You are of course correct - that "you" (above) was a reference to the politics I have experienced in certain organizations. I know individuals who have been "expelled" because they trained with an instructor from outside the organization. That was my reference - not a personal one directed at any one person. Apologies if it I was not clear. p.s. I fixed the spelling of my name
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Post by jimlukelkc on May 24, 2012 11:05:48 GMT
Backto the thread, all MA has validity dependent upon what you are training for. Tournament Taekwando for instance holds no interest for me as its focus is totally upon scoring points in competition.The same could be said of modern Judo. however if your goal is to win medals and even loftier ideals of representing your country at Qlympian level, you could do worse! Strip down any MA to its basic form and there are more similarities than differences due of course to there only being so many ways you can strike someone or throw someone. The biggest difference in most styles or systems are the people who practice them. Ego is the most divisive thing and at the heart of that is an inability to admit that we do not always get it right or that there is more than one ( and equally effective ways ) to skin a cat. In an attempt to prove ours is the most effective and one true all-encompassing system, we devise baffling jargon and mysterious secrets only available to the most trusted and time served cogniscienti . We get bogged down with minutiea like should this hand be palm up or 45 degrees,should the rear leg be ramrod straight or slightly bent. Anyone who disagrees is " Them " not "Us". People do this all the time in countless endeavours but it slows communication, creates unnecessary mythos and stands in the way of progress. Cross-training is great, I have done it myself and benefitted, but, decide what you are training for and devote most ,not all, of your focus to that. If your focus is self-protection and you decide to cross-train in Judo, great! however you need to extract what is pertinent to your training. For instance in judo, a participant will crouch on all fours with arms and head tucked in to avoid being pinned or choked out. Perfectly valid in this context but madness in a street brawl . MMA practitioners will actively seek to go to ground to score points but again the opposite should be your focus for self- protection. Find your focus first, then tailor your training accordingly. My old instructor taught us " Karate begins and ends with respect ". Some of us have forgotten this too.
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Post by fujicolt on May 24, 2012 23:34:40 GMT
Talking sense as usual Jim but i do take issue with one aspect of your post - the detail, the exactness of movement and physical placement when practicing - the minute detail.
I would suggest that if these factors are directly related to correct biomechanical use of the human body, structure, skelletal structure, vusculature etc -
then it is vital they be observed and practiced to try and achieve 100% accuracy as the fact is if you just think it through (and please forgive my awful Maths here) you will realise that
. Nobody ever achieves 100%
.if (for example) 75% is required ofr success you have to accept that
. individual event circumstances will automatically take out at least 10%
. Secondary elements will then take out at least another % - 10 %
.Slight innacuracies will account for another 2 - 5 %
and thus you haven't got much more to play with!
Therefore, if we do not pursue excellence (100%) and for example state 'Oh 80% will do!' then we aim for failure not success
If you fail to Plan you Plan to Fail!
Hope that makes sense Tee Hee!
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Post by jimlukelkc on May 28, 2012 8:37:57 GMT
I do in fact agree with all of the above stated Steve. I think I was probably still having an internal rant about the constant changing of small elements in Kata as if it mattered. I totally get bio-mechanics as they relate to MA but still feel that differences in height/weight/physical make-up will produce variations that can be factored in without reducing effectivness. If it works , it works. I personally have constantly barracked my students over paying attention to details as related to unsoku,head position, ma-ai etc , etc. 100% effort is the least I expect so no disagreement there.
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Post by Bob Davis on May 28, 2012 9:29:23 GMT
I understand why you say this Steve, and the fact that you clarify the "if directly related..." bit BUT it doesn't change the fact that in some (if not even the majority) places we do get bogged down in unnecessary detail. The thing that finished worrying about the absolute form in kata for me was the day I heard our chief instructor stand in front of the class (having come back from a course with a top Japanese instructor) and say "We now do the kata like this apparently, no idea why". It was so trivial that I can't even remember what the kata or the change was, it was the whole "change for change sake" with no rational explanation (but it HAD to be done) that killed it for me. I now practice kata in a way that makes sense to me, happy enough to be corrected if someone can give me a rational reason but no interest in the "it has to be done just so for forms sake". It's not really a wonder we don't get taken seriously in these circumstances.
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Post by kensei on May 28, 2012 16:00:59 GMT
To bobs point about changes for no real reason...or given reason....
we recently had Saeki Sensei out for a seminar and he showed us a few of the "Changes" that we need to be working on in the junior Katas...however...he showed us why we were making these small changes...I respect that but also told my students that the old ways we were doing them are not wrong...just different.
Reminds me of an article I read (junk mail actually) about Jiu Jitsu, the Brazilian kind. It talked about "differences" in applying a technique. The bottom line was that each instructor taught a bit differently in how to apply a technique because...they are different. none of them are wrong and actually some instructors will have 3-8 different ways to slap on a technique that will all work and are all correct...at different times.
I think Karate can learn from this a bit!
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Post by malk103 on May 28, 2012 21:42:44 GMT
Why would a Kata change? I may be being a bit blonde here but why do they change at all?
I understand that they were created at one point and some names were changed when they went to Japan, also other changes were made to get them into schools, also changes were made in the early days to make them better. I also understand that the JKA did a lot of changes and since then some styles/orgs have also changed bits..... Surely once they matured a bit then they should remain the same? I gather that some styles/orgs have looked back to a point in history and said that is traditional which is what we will do.
Sometimes I want to just look at one version and say "that's it"
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Post by elmar on May 28, 2012 23:35:45 GMT
Everything changes, because there are always new people doing them. Each person is unique and has a unique emphasis, and is "differently enabled" to use the current PC term. So of course the kata will change a bit. It's just a different game of "telephone". Add in those who have to change it to indicate their "power and authority", and you have all the explanation of kata changes you need, perhaps.
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Post by fujicolt on May 28, 2012 23:55:17 GMT
If my original info is correct - the JKA did make many changes to Karate BUT based on Biomechanical processes, better Sports Scince Knowledge Etc BUT - any Changes to Kata are simply silly now because they are already so far away from the original versions and what was accepted as 'OK' movements they ar simply daft! OR are they just the healthy evolution of Kata based on the thinking of instructors whom have - done this stuff for a while and know what they on about OR Are they just a way to keep you spending money, staying with them 'Cos they Know and you must pay for it' OR in rerality is Kata (as a fight training system nonsense and why worry? Sorry but this is OUR SHOTOKAN STUDIES and sometimes when studying a subject you HAVE to study Counter positions etc
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Post by fujicolt on May 28, 2012 23:59:31 GMT
OOPS - having reread the above = Sorry 'bout de spelink misdakes and bad grammmmmer etcctc OSS or OSU! whichever you prefer!
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Post by kensei on May 29, 2012 17:48:44 GMT
After years of training and seeing changes in Kata (for instance the multitudes of changes in Bassai Dai)...I have so say....I like it!
However, I also have to ask...as long as the Kata is similar, based on the same mechanics, does it matter if the kick is for the knee, shin, instep, hip, armpit? I mean seriously, I dont do Jutte the way Shinna does or the way others do...my body is different....why not just ask if the moves would work in real life?
Teaching a Kata has become way to much like teaching Ballet! My sister was a dancer and she said that for the most part, every body part must be PERFECTLY the same when dancing a part.....but that is dancing, not Karate!
For me, as long as the body mechanics are right...then the Kata is right...I dont care if my student cant lift his leg up high enough to throw a Yoko Geri to the chin....the chest, hip or even knee will do in some cases.
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Post by ruestir on May 29, 2012 18:48:17 GMT
For me, as long as the body mechanics are right...then the Kata is right...I dont care if my student cant lift his leg up high enough to throw a Yoko Geri to the chin....the chest, hip or even knee will do in some cases. It seems I had a debate with a female karateka at one point about this very thing. She seemed to be stuck in this idea that kicking height was some how linked to skill in kicking and if you couldn't kick high, then you hadn't "mastered" kicking. My argument was, and still is, if that is the case then we should award every ballet dancer in the world a dan ranking since they certainly can kick higher than most karateka!
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Post by malk103 on May 29, 2012 21:06:04 GMT
Just this Friday I got put on my backside by a Brown belt during Jiyu Kumite and I only kicked at belt hieght, he just grabbed my foot, there's another that will go for your supporting leg if you kick high - although not with any force luckily.
Back to Kata changes, some of them don't make any sense, especially where you perform 2 "blocks" and then turn away - in what possible street fight would you block twice and then turn your back on them? There has to be a deeper meaning and were they changed from block + strike, or are we meant to stretch the Kata to show a block + strike or even 2 strikes/throws etc - then why write in the books 2 blocks? Sorry to pull the thread towards Kata but if it keeps getting changed then the original implications will be lost. IMO.... We may as well just to Kata Kihon several times with meaning.
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Post by kensei on May 29, 2012 21:28:17 GMT
For me, as long as the body mechanics are right...then the Kata is right...I dont care if my student cant lift his leg up high enough to throw a Yoko Geri to the chin....the chest, hip or even knee will do in some cases. It seems I had a debate with a female karateka at one point about this very thing. She seemed to be stuck in this idea that kicking height was some how linked to skill in kicking and if you couldn't kick high, then you hadn't "mastered" kicking. My argument was, and still is, if that is the case then we should award every ballet dancer in the world a dan ranking since they certainly can kick higher than most karateka! we have a black belt in our group who Physically can not raise his leg to the side in any way, he has bone growth on his pelvis that stops his ability to raise the leg up. I wonder what our young lady would say about his shodan...he punches harder than a mule kicks however so..again, wonder what she would say.
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