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Post by kensei on May 29, 2012 21:30:47 GMT
Back to Kata changes, some of them don't make any sense, especially where you perform 2 "blocks" and then turn away - in what possible street fight would you block twice and then turn your back on them? There has to be a deeper meaning and were they changed from block + strike, or are we meant to stretch the Kata to show a block + strike or even 2 strikes/throws etc - then why write in the books 2 blocks? Sorry to pull the thread towards Kata but if it keeps getting changed then the original implications will be lost. IMO.... We may as well just to Kata Kihon several times with meaning. The changes are more actual movement alterations, the applicatons of these moves change even more than the actual moves do.....depending on who you ask..... and by the way....you would not do 2 blocks then turn away....I would say one is not actually a block
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Post by Bob Davis on May 29, 2012 21:48:08 GMT
Not that's it's relelvent to anything in particular but I finally remebered the kata change that pee'd me off.
Tekki Shodan, when we perform the kata slowly to count we are now supposed to stand on one leg hovering the other foot off the ground before we place it when stepping across. When we do it at speed we are supposed to "imply" the hover. Like I say, I'm happy to be convinced if somebody can give me a rational reason.
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Post by malk103 on May 29, 2012 21:48:40 GMT
I was thinking of the basic applications for Bassai Dai, there are a couple of turn+block+block movements early on, i'm guessing one application for these blocks are throws or grapling? I'm also wondering after talking about Kata changes that they used to be something different and more reflective on the original implication? After learning the basics of a lot of new Kata recently I have more questions than answers so you may get a lot more of these from me....
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Post by malk103 on May 29, 2012 21:57:57 GMT
Not that's it's relelvent to anything in particular but I finally remebered the kata change that pee'd me off. Tekki Shodan, when we perform the kata slowly to count we are now supposed to stand on one leg hovering the other foot off the ground before we place it when stepping across. When we do it at speed we are supposed to "imply" the hover. Like I say, I'm happy to be convinced if somebody can give me a rational reason. I'm straining the grey cells to think of a relevant implication of hovering.... I always thought that the best explanation for the first foot crossing over was to move the grabbers other foot slightly so that their feet would be apart and your next kick could then allow your raised knee to contact with a delicate part of the male anatomy, the kicking foot then comes down to the right against their knee/shin.... The Kata makes more sense to me if you are at close range and every move has a meaning....?
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Post by fleur on May 29, 2012 22:23:08 GMT
Mal, Bassai came from the kata Passai. The two blocks you are referring to in Bassai Dai are in Passai a shuto strike followed by a throat stab - so the shuto can be treated as a block or strike or both and the throat stab is definately an attack. So to answer your question, yes changes are made to kata and sometimes the result is that it no longer makes sense.
But the changes are sometimes made to simplify the kata and make it fit better with the current sylibus and kihon of the style. As Jim would say - removal of all the flowery bits. I would call it removal of advanced techniques that the style can't be bothered to teach.
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Post by ruestir on May 30, 2012 11:33:06 GMT
Not that's it's relelvent to anything in particular but I finally remebered the kata change that pee'd me off. Tekki Shodan, when we perform the kata slowly to count we are now supposed to stand on one leg hovering the other foot off the ground before we place it when stepping across. When we do it at speed we are supposed to "imply" the hover. Like I say, I'm happy to be convinced if somebody can give me a rational reason. I'm straining the grey cells to think of a relevant implication of hovering.... I always thought that the best explanation for the first foot crossing over was to move the grabbers other foot slightly so that their feet would be apart and your next kick could then allow your raised knee to contact with a delicate part of the male anatomy, the kicking foot then comes down to the right against their knee/shin.... The Kata makes more sense to me if you are at close range and every move has a meaning....? I can't give you a good reason for "hovering", nor can I give you a good reason to ever cross step during a fight. However, there is a school of thought that suggests the cross steps are code for "twist in place here." Depending on which leg is in front tells you the direction you should be twisting.
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Post by kensei on May 30, 2012 13:13:44 GMT
Tekki Shodan, when we perform the kata slowly to count we are now supposed to stand on one leg hovering the other foot off the ground before we place it when stepping across. When we do it at speed we are supposed to "imply" the hover. Like I say, I'm happy to be convinced if somebody can give me a rational reason. No IDEA. we were never taught this way and we dont do it that way? ?? Or, maybe they are implying that Karate will make you able to choose when gravity will apply to you...and or the stomping down is part of a special cat and mouse game that makes you wait till the mouse is perfectly in place to.....No, I have no idea!
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Post by kensei on May 30, 2012 13:16:10 GMT
I was thinking of the basic applications for Bassai Dai, there are a couple of turn+block+block movements early on, i'm guessing one application for these blocks are throws or grapling? I'm also wondering after talking about Kata changes that they used to be something different and more reflective on the original implication? After learning the basics of a lot of new Kata recently I have more questions than answers so you may get a lot more of these from me.... First off ask away, I am sure at least one or two of us here can help out....secondly, remember that the "implacations" to "borrow" from Steve....may differ from instructor to instructor depending on their personal Bunkai understanding. While some of the more generic stuff is basically for show and simplicity, the double blocks can be an arm lock, throwing implication, or simply a double block....or a half dozen other combinations and alterations! Its the actual change in target, or movements that get me...and now we are dissing the changes in our own styles
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Post by kensei on May 30, 2012 13:20:49 GMT
As Jim would say - removal of all the flowery bits. I would call it removal of advanced techniques that the style can't be bothered to teach. Jim is not the only one......"Flowery bits/Advanced techniques" are often not very well used on the street in a real fight. I remember watching and being in may a fight that ended well...and not so well....while working the doors or the few odd street scuff ups. The ones that ended well for me and or friends were often those that included very basic and straight forward techniques and even some basic wrestling/grappling. The ones that ended not so well often included "advanced" techniques or at the least attempts at them...or being hit first with basic moves. The fact is that flowing, flowery techniques are more for aesthetics than real world use...and it all depends on your goals as a Karate-ka. I totally respect those that can do the flowery moves and have nice form and technique....but I would rather have the guy that hits hard and fast in my corner over the guy with the fancy kicks and hand moves! Just saying.......
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Post by elmar on May 30, 2012 15:51:34 GMT
I'm a bit confused - what is meant by "flowery techniques" here? Can anyone give me an example from the kata? I ask because as I've wandered through the 26 in the JKA curriculum, and also a few outside that curriculum, I haven't found anything particularly flowery ...
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Post by kensei on May 30, 2012 18:27:42 GMT
I'm a bit confused - what is meant by "flowery techniques" here? Can anyone give me an example from the kata? I ask because as I've wandered through the 26 in the JKA curriculum, and also a few outside that curriculum, I haven't found anything particularly flowery ... For me flowery techniques would be more what people do in Kumite not in Kata. Kata can have flowery technqiues added in like swirling your hands about before doing Shuto or Age Zuki in Empi.
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Post by elmar on May 30, 2012 20:19:47 GMT
.. swirling your hands about before doing Shuto or Age Zuki in Empi. The only swirling hands in shuto I've seen is by the Kyukushin folks, and yes, that strikes me as a bit extreme. The rotating hand in Enpi can be a countergrab following the upstrike into a striking wrist, although done somewhat slowly in the kata.
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Post by jimlukelkc on May 31, 2012 12:34:56 GMT
I think "Flowery " might be a bit of a misnomer here. As I have stated elsewhere, most of the kata implications employ Gross Motor Skills, for good reason. Your are more likely to be able to apply them under duress. However, the kata do not ignore Fine Motor Skills as an alternative, they just tend emphasise their presence by indicating the move is to be performed slowly . How else can you indicate in a non-verbal way that precision and skill are need at this point? The same as angles in kata. If you do not have an opponent as a point of reference then changing the angle does not indicate the direction of the attack, rather the angle you need to be in relation to your opponent. So in reality we do not perform any technique slowly as this would be pointless. It is not stylistic, or stylised. It is an indication of skill level. The " swirling hands " mentioned by Elmar sounds like Mawashi uke and I have seen this used to great effect by Gojo-ryu practitioners for many and varied applications, virtually ignored in Shotokan and only warranting a mention at the end of Nijushiho. The most effective and tried and tested techniques will often be repeated over and over throughout kata due to them being adaptable as a response eg. Age uke, which can be used as a parry, a trap and strike , a joint attack etc, without changing the technique at all. Others will be shown only occassionally and I feel we have to ask, " Does this mean this is not easliy applied except under particular circumstances". Is it therefore considered effective if those conditions are met but otherwise do not try this at home!
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Post by ruestir on May 31, 2012 16:32:05 GMT
The " swirling hands " mentioned by Elmar sounds like Mawashi uke and I have seen this used to great effect by Gojo-ryu practitioners for many and varied applications, virtually ignored in Shotokan and only warranting a mention at the end of Nijushiho. It's not mawashi uke. It could be refined to be that, and maybe it once was, but not the way it's currently being employed. As a side note I asserted to Elmar, during one training session where we were practicing Mawashi uke, that all "blocks" were just stunted variations of Mawashi uke. His response was something to the effect "Ah, the lights do come on!" And I thought I was being clever too!
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Post by elmar on May 31, 2012 19:39:39 GMT
The " swirling hands " mentioned by Elmar sounds like Mawashi uke ... Actually, that was not what I was referring to. I was referring to Oyama's "point and circle" theory/method for shuto-uke. I also teach mawashi-uke, and find it a fascinating study, as Alex indicates.
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Post by fujicolt on Jun 2, 2012 23:19:01 GMT
A number of my students worked for me in the Security Industry facing REAL Violence - some of them could kick like a mule, some couldn't but either way in the reality of it all NONE of them ever needed to be able to do any leg work higher than low to middle but ALL (including me) needed and displayed workable hand and upper body skills - none of these skills could be assessed in any Shotokan Gradings but could be in other MA's gradings sorry but fact We need to change
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Post by elmar on Jun 3, 2012 14:25:56 GMT
...none of these skills could be assessed in any Shotokan Gradings but could be in other MA's gradings ... We need to change Not if you want to label what you are doing as "pure JKA Shotokan Karate-Do" - that is de jure defined by the JKA testing curriculum. Period. I "cheat" I call what I do "Shinkyu Shotokan" (New-Old Shotokan), and while I use the JKA/AAKF testing format I was subjected to in the late 60's and early 70's up to ikkyu (with the addition of the 3 tekki kata), I don't "leave" the shotokan fold in terms of testing until after shodan. However, I teach much wider than the JKA limits even to kyu grades, adding in goju and shito derived kata and methods, and using the HAPV (or whatever the preferred initials are) in "one-step" sparring drills. I also teach kata from the HAPV application perspective rather than the kihon perspective, although I do insist that the classical JKA kihon shape is to a great degree followed (save that I shorten the stances somewhat to match GF's original guidance of 2x shoulder width - which is explicitly measured for each individual). So, am I doing "shotokan"? yes - and no. As they say, YMMV.
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Post by th0mas on Jun 11, 2012 19:16:24 GMT
Not that's it's relelvent to anything in particular but I finally remebered the kata change that pee'd me off. Tekki Shodan, when we perform the kata slowly to count we are now supposed to stand on one leg hovering the other foot off the ground before we place it when stepping across. When we do it at speed we are supposed to "imply" the hover. Like I say, I'm happy to be convinced if somebody can give me a rational reason. Now, you see Bob, you have completely mis-understood the key implications of the Tekki kata series. .... As you crab-step along the boat you hover your foot to ensure you don't step too hard down on the rollocks. ...Stepping hard on your rollocks can be very painful, I have heard.
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Post by th0mas on Jun 11, 2012 19:29:07 GMT
On a serious note...
The "hover" sounds like b*ll*cks.
...well I think that covers it.
In fact the cross leg implies a whole raft of things depending on your body mechanics in relation to your opponent; a step and weight shift for take down, a spin or (thanks Rod for this one) sticking your bum into your opponent (for escaping a bear hug for those with an over active imagination).
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Post by Bob Davis on Jun 11, 2012 19:40:14 GMT
Is that the same "rollocks" that involves the Sankaku Tobi Empi Uchi from Meikyo being "the application of this is for when you are fighting on the edge of a cliff" (I have really seriously heard this said out loud in front of a room full of students : Maybe if I "just shut up and train more" eventually I'll achieve wisdom and understand
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Post by kensei on Jun 12, 2012 12:26:17 GMT
Is that the same "rollocks" that involves the Sankaku Tobi Empi Uchi from Meikyo being "the application of this is for when you are fighting on the edge of a cliff" (I have really seriously heard this said out loud in front of a room full of students : Maybe if I "just shut up and train more" eventually I'll achieve wisdom and understand LMAO, someone said you were doing the triangle jump because you were fighting on the edge of a CLIFF??? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Okay, thats funny! I love hearing weird and sometimes stupid Bunkai or even techniques taught by others. and to be frank Shotokan is not alone but we sure as hell are not immune from this kind of silly and stupid things said. Trust me..as the UFO people say....WE are not alone here people!
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jun 12, 2012 13:41:57 GMT
Oh that is nothing ! Bob I too have heard the standing on the edge of a cliff rubbish too. That Tekki was devised for fighting in paddy fields, or on horseback! ( no mention how you get around the horses head being in the way! ) That the final three hops in Chinte are just to get back to the starting point and that the jump in Heian Go-dan is to clear a sword that someone is swinging at your feet! I could go on but please!
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Post by Bob Davis on Jun 12, 2012 14:17:52 GMT
I am (perhaps) being slightly unfair to my early stage adult students by pointing out what I consider to be horse sh*t as we go along. Problem being that I know they are going to end up training with other instructors in our group at some point and have to stand with a straight face when they hear this stuff (but I think the alternative is worse).
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Post by grunners4 on Jun 12, 2012 14:22:36 GMT
A number of my students worked for me in the Security Industry facing REAL Violence - some of them could kick like a mule, some couldn't but either way in the reality of it all NONE of them ever needed to be able to do any leg work higher than low to middle but ALL (including me) needed and displayed workable hand and upper body skills - none of these skills could be assessed in any Shotokan Gradings but could be in other MA's gradings sorry but fact We need to change Anyone had a look here? worldcombatassociation.com/?page_id=240This is the requirements from a grading perspective -obviously more comprehensive the higher the grade. Wondering how well this concept will do, looks as though the thought is to give people an avenue to explore their martial arts further and not be bound by set protocol but expand using their guidelines.
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jun 13, 2012 10:16:42 GMT
I think a lot of organisations could benefit from adopting these syllabus requirements. One of the best examples of an art evolving rather than devolving into a sport!
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