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Post by malk103 on May 28, 2012 21:53:15 GMT
A book of Kata which includes Bunkai.
Realising that each move or small combination can have several different applications and they can also be different for people with differing builds/strength/height etc. Maybe just the most popular application and not the kids long distance option....
Included on my bookcase are Iain Abernethy's bunkai jutsu where he gives quite a few good applications and Gichin Funakoshi's Karate-do Kyohan where most Kata moves are explained/shown with some applications thrown in. If there was a book that expanded on these 2....?
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Post by fujicolt on May 28, 2012 22:29:31 GMT
Mal
The Book, DVD even old VHS , You tube clip etc that you search for CANNOT exist and until you have a paradigm shift you will search in vain
However, If you do have the noted Paradigm shift you wouldn't need the said images because YOU will be the key to it all.
However, you will have to study - over a long time (the timeframe is purely because there is so much info out there and not to do with your speed of absorption of said info - you'll never get it all!) to help you realise that there are NO Bunkai's - there is only...
What is the Kata implying:
Tactically Strategically Mindset Possible use for movements, including all body parts irrespectively and jointly All possible techniques: All Five 'Limbs' Plus teeth, spitting and vocal interventions Etc A MASSIVE LIST! Locks, Throws, Restraints (very different than Locks, Trips, Sweeps, Body Slams Etc Etc Etc
the reason being Mal - No ONe knows
So go find the info and enjoy yourself - you will come up with some stuff that doesn't work - we all have! (but many won't admit it and only publish that which does LOL!)
BUT, once you grasp it - it will all start to open up, work and be great fun to explore.
Kata Implications - Not APPLICATIONS (bUNKAI).
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Post by malk103 on May 29, 2012 6:28:00 GMT
I guess there is no quick way to work them out with a single point of reference.
I've learnt a few lately - or started to learn them - i've got the routine and will work on the techniques forever and a day, i'm left with a thousand questions on their implications and sometimes can't see the obvious so could do with some resources to help explore.
Maybe I should change the question to what are the best resources available to help try to understand Kata?
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Post by jimlukelkc on May 29, 2012 8:27:18 GMT
The best resource is you Mal. I agree to a point with what Steve says but you can refine your search by immediately disgarding any techniques where the opponent is attacking from kumite distance with oi-tsuki, mae-geri etc. Kata are a civilian defence system so disregard any jumping over sticks,catching swords etc. Keep it close and realistic. Roughen it up a bit and do not change the kata to suit the bunkai. That should give you a good head start !
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Post by Bob Davis on May 29, 2012 12:06:50 GMT
That in itself is a clue and a good place to start to play.
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Post by Bob Davis on May 29, 2012 12:17:43 GMT
This possibly should be in a different thread but while the thought occurs (if I go to another room I'll forget what I came in for ) Whilst I understand the idea of "implications" (and work on them myself within the Shotokan framework) I hear a lot about kata teaching principals, tactics and strategy, however, given that the Shotokanised versions of kata we practice are greatly modified and are basically (no pun intended) Kihon centric stylised performances of the originals do these principals and strategies still actually exist in the versions we practice? or are we building them back in from our own imagination/understanding?
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Post by malk103 on May 29, 2012 15:47:57 GMT
That in itself is a clue and a good place to start to play. I've managed to link a lot of Kata moves against a typical Saturday night right hook, also linked some more to the hibitual acts of violence. Onto your second point, sometimes you need a hint to get a few of these implications and potential applications, after seeing some of them it always seemd soo obvious but I couldn't see it before. Some seem to expand a bit too much on their imaginations and end up "stretching" the Kata to suit the Bunkai though.
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Post by malk103 on Jun 7, 2012 15:39:26 GMT
I have read some of the work by John Burke and Patrick McCarthy - has anyone read anything from these 2?
Obviously if you have had a bad experience then best to PM me rather than "diss" someone on OSS.
John has several video clips on his website which are all good and thought provoking.
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Post by fujicolt on Jun 7, 2012 20:22:25 GMT
This possibly should be in a different thread but while the thought occurs (if I go to another room I'll forget what I came in for ) Whilst I understand the idea of "implications" (and work on them myself within the Shotokan framework) I hear a lot about kata teaching principals, tactics and strategy, however, given that the Shotokanised versions of kata we practice are greatly modified and are basically (no pun intended) Kihon centric stylised performances of the originals do these principals and strategies still actually exist in the versions we practice? or are we building them back in from our own imagination/understanding? Bob It is our imagination and understanding that is the Key to working out what the Kata may imply. Note I say MAY IMPLY - as there are no absolutes but - think it through: the wider your Understanding of violence and it's massive complexity the broader you will be able to Imagine possible attacks and thus possibly implied implications and so on and so forth Which is a far healthier, more productive and actually more educational than the false - this is the Application approach One is a Cul de Sac the other is a 'way' (open Road unlimited by direction, gradient, twists turns and even looping back on itself when required. Mal will find what he seems to be looking for by looking for Books DVD's Clips etc to help him or he can come out of the Cul de sac this will lead to and simply use them as possible routes to explore but not the map! they may well increase his understanding and thus imagination ( and given Mal's excellent training attitude and love of his Karate I am sure this will grow and grow) but only so far and then one must unleash the massive possibilities of self analysis of Kata and its potential. I think using an understanding of the factors I listed above to then imagine possible uses of Kata is not a case of doing it in reverse as you seem to suggest and ask about. I think it is a case of going - Surely, the designers/originaters of the Kata, and their restructuring, would not do so without Martial Intent (and all that requires - tactically, timing, distaqncing etc etc etc) and merely create a @dance' I sincerely hope not!
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Post by malk103 on Jun 7, 2012 20:53:37 GMT
An open mind is probably key to it, i'm at the stage of gathering as much existing info as possible so I don't have to re-invent the wheel, it will also provide food for thought on what I think and sometimes help point out the blindingly obvious!
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Post by fujicolt on Jun 7, 2012 21:21:29 GMT
Mal - think like this - if you approach this clear interest of yours with a very open mind that realises 'some' pathways will be dead ends but others will take you to a wide open plain _ I can well imagine that in the future a student will post 'I am trying to really learn about the value of KATA - can anyone tell me where I can get hold of Mal King's Books and DVD's for a good price?'
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