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Post by kensei on May 31, 2012 13:14:42 GMT
I moved this comment frmo Elmar as I did not want to soil the already off track "D'isin other arts thread". .. swirling your hands about before doing Shuto or Age Zuki in Empi. The only swirling hands in shuto I've seen is by the Kyukushin folks, and yes, that strikes me as a bit extreme. The rotating hand in Enpi can be a countergrab following the upstrike into a striking wrist, although done somewhat slowly in the kata. First I hope you find this one Elmar as I really want to chat about thsi one. Second, why on earth would you do a Age Zuki to someones wrist/arm in a real fight...unless you intend on having a 70/30 chance or more of missing and getting your butt kicked? My thought on this application/implacation may be that you do the rising punch to the chin and then (with flowery wrist twist) Grab the throat of your attacker before the next move. But to suggest that someone is striking an arm and then grabbing the wrist is a bit risky isnt it? I see alot of "advanced" moves that are associated with Kata as to hard to actually pull off in a real fight. If it dont work to get my bacon out of trouble then I am not going to give it the time of day for applications! Just my thoughts, please explain yours (just asking with respect). J
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Post by elmar on May 31, 2012 19:36:37 GMT
Sure: Can you slap away a tennis ball thrown at you with force? If so slapping an incoming face punch up with the back of your hand is relatively easy, since it does not need to be that accurate. And it hurts the attacker's forearm since the impact is into the inside tendons. The countergrab is ideally a sankyo if the attack is right handed, rokkyo if left handed, but need not be; just get hold of the wrist and yank. The target is after all an extended thing and not a point target. As for the alternate (hit under the chin), the rotate would go behind the head to pull it down, not grab the chin.
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Post by kensei on Jun 2, 2012 1:43:52 GMT
okay, thank you. I see what you are saying. but in a "real fight" I still dont think that would be my first move....but its something to drill and have as an option.
Thank you.
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Post by fujicolt on Jun 7, 2012 21:52:38 GMT
Elmar, I, like Kensei, am not exactly sure in regard to what you are saying describing here - so in fairness to you can you elaborate a little with your description of your way of applying these moves as, like Kensei, in m current understanding I am very unsure of any actual, real time, use of what my current understanding is of your explanation BUT I absolutely wish to be clear here - I think, at the moment, I am likely to be misunderstanding your points as written and that is my fault not yours DOH! ;D ;D
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Post by kensei on Jun 8, 2012 12:16:01 GMT
I am glad that I am not the only one missing his point a bit. I went to the club the other night and tried my best to practice this one seriously....but I started thinking about MAJOR factors in real fights......
First off Adrenaline...the old fight or RUN LIKE A BUGGER reflexive juices. Both attacker and defender have them when this Physical meeting is occuring.
The Adrenaline will make your moves sloppy and his moves and body stronger (as well as yours) this means in a real fight fine motor skills are pretty much out the window!
The "Drug" effect also makes your thinking take backe seat to your instincts......
Mix it all together and even if I drilled this a thousand times to make it feel automatic...well my thoughts are that when the old turd hits the flywheel I am going to want some strong basic moves, not fancy wrist punch/brab combos. If I was going to strike then a good solid punch to the face and a kick to the "junkers" would probably be my first reaction, not a wrist punch and Aikido inspired wrist grab.
While the technique may have merrit in a Dojo environment it would take to much and offer up to big a risk to be effective and taught to any of my door men students that need quick answers that are effective and have a very high percentage of "workability".
Need application....Yes.....useable in a real fight...questionable at best.
Sorry Elmar this is just my thought, but having been in more than enough scuffles as a working man and a young man I simply think its what it is, nifty fancy stuff for the Dojo.
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Post by elmar on Jun 8, 2012 20:40:50 GMT
OK - let's take it a bit at a time then. How many times have you smacked fists together in the heat of a match/fight? Boxers do it all the time, since they learn to block with their gloves. The Isshin-ryu folk I know actively target the opponent's hands when they want to be mean. Stick a fist in their face and they will hit it. That is all that this entry is intended to do - hit their hand, ideally from underneath, then grab it. Then the combo continues with a low kick, etc. We actively train NOT to collide fists, 'cause it hurts, after all, it doesn't get points, and you can be called foul on it (attacking the opponent's limbs is not considered "fair").
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Post by fujicolt on Jun 8, 2012 21:47:02 GMT
Elmar - sorry but i have to be honest here - clashing fists with an opponent - be it in competition or a real exchange = Never! not saying it could not happen but never, to my recollection - Has?
Therefore (sorry) but i still do not get your point as this as a SD possibility?
Sorry - maybe I am still not getting your point but at the moment it seems to be nonsense - again Sorry but i have to call it as seen!
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Post by elmar on Jun 9, 2012 0:30:48 GMT
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Post by fujicolt on Jun 10, 2012 1:34:59 GMT
Well having read your link I have to say that unless weapons involved, and given that joint locking is not what you appear to describe, i would have to say IMHO this just aint feasable in real life encounters If we simply consider Tournament Kumite - even in the days when it was far more brutal than now - having witnessed thousands of bouts - and competed in many - I cannot remember one occasion were an opponent was 'disabled' in this way. I have seen some nasty accidents including broken legs (me included in that list!! ) but they where an accident not a strategy! - Sorry!
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Post by elmar on Jun 10, 2012 22:00:31 GMT
In my experience, it works in dojo kumite (which allows and includes grappling), provided you don't try to force it. As they say, YMMV. Each to his own. But that is less the point than the actuality of the kata - from your POV, what is the kata doing there? Are you convinced that the originator of this sequence was an idiot? It is easy enough to say "that won't work", but less easy to say "this will."
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Post by kensei on Jun 11, 2012 17:50:40 GMT
from your POV, what is the kata doing there? My thought is that its a "Sneeky" little rising punch to the chops and then a grab of the throat as you slip in to punch him in the "junk". In my suggestion the target is easier to hit than a arm and the result is a lot more "fight finishing" than the strike and grip...at least thats my thought on it! Are you convinced that the originator of this sequence was an idiot? I dont think you are an idiot at all, and for the record, the JKA way and every other org I have seen does the Bunkai the way I think of it....just saying that everyone is kind of "guessing" what the originator was thinking when he made the sequence up...I just like my way of interpreting what he was thinking! It is easy enough to say "that won't work", but less easy to say "this will." Its very easy to try something and say "that wont work" and look for a way that will. Each person will have their own way of doing it...I am just saying my direct and brutal dispatch of a person, sans the fancy flippy wrist and arm punch...makes more sense to ME!
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