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Post by malk103 on Jun 20, 2012 9:05:38 GMT
I’ve seen a few applications to jumps in Kata that include avoiding leg sweeps, Bo attacks or other weapons directed at your feet, I’ve also learnt the general implication of having to use so much power when throwing someone that you actually push down hard with your legs – when practiced alone as in Kata this downward force ends up being a jump. Heian Godan has you jumping/turning and then applying a lower crossed fist block/attack, is this avoiding a lower attack and blocking low after the jump – or is it throwing someone then attacking them whilst on the floor? Or could the jumping principle be applied to both scenarios? Then take Empi, it appears as though you grab a Bo staff and then jump/turn, or does this translate into a twisting throw?
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Post by kensei on Jun 20, 2012 12:50:50 GMT
In my books it does, and then in Meikyo you are jumping out of a corner and around a attacker to take the advantage spot and corner them!
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Post by fujicolt on Jun 20, 2012 14:57:40 GMT
As in most things 'KATA' related there are many possibilities but Malk touches upon one that I 1st heard decades ago.... Kata is a solo exercise and thus is void of all of the factors introduced into a combative exchange by an opponent/opponents. Throwing or lifting/overturning an opponent is a very useful unarmed combat procedure. THe 'Jump' recreates the physical excertion of lifting a 'body wieght' and manipulating it in a certain (but necessarily precise) manner. the jump and inherent twists turns, balance, co-ordination, precision etc are thus - in a solo form - rehearsed. I am not suggesting there are not other possibilities but this does make sense as to why some of these seemingly obscure 'Jumps' are there and why they must be practiced so precisely to ensure they have the secondary benefits that can be gained from solo exercise of what in reality has to be at least a dual process.
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jun 20, 2012 19:00:35 GMT
I have to stress this is just my opinion but, as Steve has just stated most jumps indicate a throw. If you take that as a given then if for example the jump in Godan is a shoulder throw then imagine your opponent lands on his side whilst you control his arm . If you try to apply an arm lock from there your opponent rolls away. however with one foot in front of his torso and one behind ( Kosa-dachi ) then you automatically have the leverage for the arm lock. Job done and no unrealistic bo aimed at your feet scenarios.
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Post by genkaimade on Jun 21, 2012 13:24:47 GMT
I have to stress this is just my opinion but, as Steve has just stated most jumps indicate a throw. If you take that as a given then if for example the jump in Godan is a shoulder throw then imagine your opponent lands on his side whilst you control his arm . If you try to apply an arm lock from there your opponent rolls away. however with one foot in front of his torso and one behind ( Kosa-dachi ) then you automatically have the leverage for the arm lock. Job done and no unrealistic bo aimed at your feet scenarios. Any chance of a recording of this being posted? I've never really looked at Heian Godan implications, but I've always thought that the whole bo thing was a little silly.
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jun 21, 2012 13:40:53 GMT
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Post by makoto on Jun 21, 2012 15:42:26 GMT
The jumps in the kata my indicated throws. However the dynamics used for jumping and the dynamics used for throwing are a little different. Jumping in the air does not train the legs for throwing 75kg of body weight or more. jimlukelkc, Ian A is just the best around for bunkai and coming up with common sense explanations for kata moves.
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Post by genkaimade on Jun 21, 2012 15:56:53 GMT
Thank you! Now to see if I can apply it without shrinking 6 inches!
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Post by fleur on Jun 24, 2012 8:02:25 GMT
Personally I think the jumps are a crock. There were never jumps in the original pinan godan (Heian godan) or in Wanshu (Empi).There are turns that indicate throws. We all know many changes where made to Shotokan kata in the early 1930's to make them more dynamic, to train different aspects of the body, to make them more of a cultural fit to be accepted as a Japanese system. I don't think bunkai and application were even considered on many occasion when these changes were made and now that everyone is into wanting to understand the meaning behind these moves everyone's scrambling to make sense of things that no longer make sense because they have been tweeked beyond there original meaning. If you really want to know the true meaning behind a kata you have go back to before it was altered.
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Post by elmar on Jun 24, 2012 15:43:54 GMT
... If you really want to know the true meaning behind a kata you have go back to before it was altered. I agree that research into the older and/or variant forms is extremely useful, if not critical, to make sense of the kata. I don't that that it follows that the jumps are a "crock", though, since they do not necessarily detract from the "meaning", provided one is aware of what the alternative movements are. "Bunkai" (as used around here, meaning decoding applications from the unaltered movements), is only step 1; "oyo" (same disclaimer, but meaning you can alter the movements to adjust, but not "radically - subjective judgement here) lets you deal with "omitting" the jumps if you like. From what I have seen, most of the sequences of most of the kata have gained stylistic idiosyncrasies and "prettiness", but at their heart are still capable of functional interpretation.
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