|
Post by kensei on Jul 23, 2012 11:56:12 GMT
Okay, so this is a weird start, but as of late I am starting to see an issue with clubs that are not private. The biggest issue is the "right" to test for a shodan.
I have seen people reach the Shodan level and then stop because they feel they have hit the top of their level, and I have seen people who have earned Shodan and left because they felt like they did not earn it in some way or should not be one.
But, I have also seen people who have to big an ego to get one and when they do get it their heads blow up like a gym ball and their EGO gets huge as well.
my question is this....is everyone that you teach "entitled" to grade for Shodan? I mean really, should they be able to grade and move up the ladder just because they pay their dues and are active members. Or should the instructor be able to weed out those that wont take the grading well and ask them to hang on indeffenetly until they are more "able to mentally take the rank" (Read be less of a moron-in-waiting)?
I have seen Ego's in the Dojo run rampant and I have see students get themselves out of line with instructors and seniors because they feel entitled to rank and once they do rank they run wrough shot over others with Ego and issues.
Is attendance, payment and physically being able to perform the test enough??
|
|
|
Post by malk103 on Jul 23, 2012 20:33:41 GMT
"Is attendance, payment and physically being able to perform the test enough??" Nope! I sometimes wonder if I was up to the required standard when I graded Shodan last year, I will always question my own ability though - I think anyone who doesn't should look in the mirror. The test that we have includes an interview and technical questions, it should be obvious if a student is dedicated to the art by these alone. In our club we have 4 candidates for Shodan, the first 2 have trained hard, practiced at home, investigated terminology and history - they have shown the final stage and should both grade okay. The 3rd shows up most weeks and has been an unenthusiastic 1st Kyu for over a year and has not been told he is eligible for grading. The 4th is borderline, he has good spirit, speed, power etc and knows the 3 K's, he can also adapt to any combination and is good at freestyle. But over the last month he has trained for 2 hours? I remember if I missed one of the 3 lessons I did in a week I would attend another and train more at home/work. I know that the first 2 will continue to train hard - one is my son so doesn't have a choice - the 4th one may take it as a trophy and disappear which is mental as it's the start of the proper training! The 3rd will probably give up either way. It would be good to get an international level for Shodan so it was the same standard anywhere in the world. Trying to get everyone to agree that level would be impossible but at least you would know you have earnt it in sweat and time instead of money and regular attendance!
|
|
|
Post by Bob Davis on Jul 23, 2012 21:48:20 GMT
Ok, playing Devil's advocate a little but........ If those are your associations requirements then the answer has to be yes. I've looked at many different syllabus' (syllabi?) over the years and have never seen "not being an ar*ehole" as a quoted demonstratable requirement. However we seem to think that by training in karate you will cease to be an ar*ehole if you just stick with it (as if you can't actually be a dedicated, hardworking ar*ehole, I think we've all seen enough footballers to know that isn't the case ). We do the whole interview thing as part of the Shodan grading to "access the students character", never really figured this out because if you don't have a handle on the students character after 4-5 years of regular training then you are not going to learn a lot during that half hour talk on grading day where all that seems to be required is that they say the right words. Again, depends on the basis on which you took them on, if you are a commercial association (i.e. you charge at profit for training, gradings, membership etc..) then you are not doing students a favour by taking them on, you are charging for a service and they are your customers and as such are entitled to certain expectations. If you want to pick an chose who's entitled to be a blackbelt take private students at no charge and do it by your own rules (in this case you are genuinely doing them a favour and they should expect no more than you are prepared to give). I sometimes think we make too much of being a blackbelt as the carrot we dangle to keep people going through the grading system, is it any wonder some people think they've "made it" when they get one (they may well have missed the point but who set the "chase the grade" mentality in the first place?). Despite the sense of personal achievement it may engender, (I was certainly very pleased with my shodan, although less and less bothered with each successive grading) having a blackbelt doesn't make you special, however some people will always feel the need to BE special and this is one path to that end. We are a fairly small group but I haven't seen too much in the way of ego problems (there's a lot of other silliness that goes on but that's a different story) there are always the odd one or two but they tend to not fit into our culture. (To paraphrase an old quote "if there's at least one ar*ehole in every group and you look around yours and can't see one then it's you! ;D) I was once told by a very good friend (long before I started training) that I had what he referred to as a "big personality" so I'm quite ready to consider in my peer group that the ar*ehole may be me
|
|
|
Post by jimlukelkc on Jul 24, 2012 14:39:46 GMT
Bob, I tend to think that as they say , If you question your own sanity the chances are you are as sane as the next man, as if you were insane, you would not know it ( catch 22 ). If you are self-aware enough to consider whether you are an ar**hole, you probably aren't ! On the subject of dan grades but possibly unrelated to this thread: I have a young 1st kyu who has been training towards shodan for at least two years. During those two years, as he approaches grading, he presents with an injury. The first time, it was broken thumb, for which he took 6 weeks out, no training of any kind. Second time it was a knee injury, 3 weeks no training then intermittently dropping out. recently, he has taken private lessons, we have covered cardio, kata, kumite, bag work, conditioning. He has worked really hard. He has just presented with a broken hand. Out of training completely again. I am beginning to think this is avoidance. The other issue I have is his spirit. Surely I am not alone in thinking he could come along to class, do basics, help in class and do kata etc. ? I am considering knocking his grading back another 6 months.
|
|
|
Post by Bob Davis on Jul 24, 2012 15:32:24 GMT
Hi Jim, I've always looked on self awareness as my one redeeming feature If it's any help (just in case you haven't got enough stories of your own to pass on), I cracked two ribs a week or so before my shodan and ended up being told off the following session for doing press ups in class on one arm only in order to protect the injured side (you were saying something about sanity , although I have to admit to being quite thankful when they made me stop. My son, at the age of 15, broke his hand during the pre grading training session but still managed (after much ice and the fitting of a mit) to proceed with his full grading and pass, (mind, his hand has been an odd shape ever since).
|
|
|
Post by th0mas on Jul 24, 2012 18:55:46 GMT
As a comparison to these sad tales of not being able to grade due to injury....I on the other hand, managed to put myself on crutches after being kicked in the thigh (a sorry boring tale of self-medication and Ralgex) just prior to my 3rd kyu grading.
Our senior instructor, John Poncillo (an old friend of Fujicolt's) took one look at the prat in the line-up, who having discarded his crutch fell on his face, and said "don't be silly tom, you've passed."
In fact, at the time I was very proud (in my teenage brain) that he thought I was good enough to pass me without going through the formal grading process.
...my view is that, although there is a necessary place for a formal test, where a candidate is clearly good enough and through no fault of their own cannot grade through injury I don't believe you belittle the value of the grade, by passing them.
|
|
|
Post by kensei on Jul 25, 2012 12:32:11 GMT
while the thread has moved a bit, its good. I have tested with (not all at once mind you) a broken nose/broken cheek bone, broken hand/fingers, broken toes (judo), broken ribs, broken ankle (not FUN) and so many bumps and blue spots its not funny.
Dingman Sensei used to say that you you had to pound the steel to make it harder, and in our Dojo we were the aformentioned steel!
Times have changed and so have attitudes, and not always for the better. We used to be so Macho that you could say taking a .22 cal. shot to the gut was part of the test for Shodan and we would do as many sit ups as we could to "toughen up" and not think twice about it! Now we have Brown belts that go into testing only training twice a week for it and only having a basic understanding of the skills required to grade.
We put a stop to the skill level thing, but the spirit is another thing all together.
|
|
|
Post by makoto on Jul 25, 2012 15:35:17 GMT
That is the beauty of things. If everyone had to meet a certain standard, there would be no 10 year old black belts, nor 70 year black belts. Compassion and reason has to come in to it. I could also turn it the other way. They guys who are in great shape, and at the best in their technique are the top dogs. They should be given high ranks, and when they start to decline, rank is taken from them.
Each person is different. I go into clubs and often think how in the hell did that guy get a black belt. Then I realize my ego is running away with me. It is all on a case by case situation. You have to be there and apart of situation to understand how in the heck a reasonable person gave xxxx a black belt.
As for the post black belt arrogance, even a white belt can tell such a jerk off.
|
|
|
Post by nathanso on Jul 26, 2012 3:34:22 GMT
Dingman Sensei used to say that you you had to pound the steel to make it harder, and in our Dojo we were the aformentioned steel! As Goethe said, you must be either anvil or hammer.
|
|
|
Post by elmar on Jul 27, 2012 0:02:08 GMT
Shodan has been invested in the West with so much freight that it simply does not carry in Japan - it means "first step" after all. All you are supposed to have mastered is the kihon of the style - no more. It's an historical anomaly that we did this elevation, simply because we had nothing at first - to the blind, the one-eyed is king, iow. But that "king" is still monocular, and in the company of the two-eyed, he lacks quite a bit of depth (OK - bad pun there, sorry). In Kyudo, shodan means nothing - just that you are safe on the floor, know the form and can get arrows down to the bloody target, not necessarily in it; that requirement comes with sandan. In Judo, it means that you have learned the 40 throws and the basic dozen holds and can execute them under some pressure against your peers, successfully at least 50% of the time. Now whether this elevated requirement on shodan is good/bad is another matter, but realize that it need not be anything other than a statement that you are finally worth training.
|
|
|
Post by th0mas on Jul 27, 2012 11:10:40 GMT
HAHAhaha lol ;D
Now there is a martial discipline that has lost it's focus on outcomes. It is one of the reasons I love the idea of Kyudo, it really appeals to my sense of the ridiculous.
|
|
|
Post by kensei on Jul 27, 2012 12:24:34 GMT
All the "Shodan is only first step" Aside, which I agree with by the way....in our western Dojos, and the east...a black belt means you have been around for 3-5 years and now reprosent the club in some ways.....so, the question as a instructor is...can you or should you hold back students you dont think reprosent your club well.
Case in point, a guy comes in and pays to train, he marches up through the ranks, seems like a good guy and you promote him to brown belt, on the eve so to speak of him testing you find out he is....
a wicked racists....... a tax avaiding criminal (no jail time just charges)..... a wife beating bad drunk..... has mental issues that make him unstable some times..... has been in an out of jail for computer crimes....... has opposing political views....VERY opposing........ is a preachy Git that tries to sell everyone on being vegan or some such crap.... a 40 year old flirt that likes younger girls (early 20's) and does not hid it..... A raving drunk on the week ends and has several DUI's.....
any of these really. But as a modern instructor having to pay the bills do you let him grade for Shodan or do you have him wait...and conversly are any of these any of our business?
And what do you do with the Shodan/Nidan in your club that......
Does not pay after gaining black belt..I mean they are seniors now..... Bad mounths you/your club/your organization behind your back and you find out about it....... Gets a huge Ego and pushes Juniors around...... ext and so forth.....
The point is, do we not have a responsibility to only promote those that we can respect to reprosent us as Dan level students? Also, if they get out of line is it not our responsibility as their instructors/seniors to bang the nail down?
|
|
|
Post by kensei on Jul 27, 2012 12:32:43 GMT
Maybe as a point of clarity I can let you know why I brought this up......
Recently my instructor had me contact a Shodan that just got his JKA Shodan last year. He had been a long(ish) time student of my instructor but as of about six months ago he had not been training regularly with him. Infact I have run into him several times (almost every time) I teach for one of my juniors at a different club.
So, this guy has been paying a student(univeristy student) rate for almost five years now...and he graduated two years ago! Now I have to admit we run things pretty loose and while it was understood that he was to only pay the student rate while in school....I guess who ever was collecting the money just took the payments from him and did not say anything...our administrator was new and knew no better.
So, this guy STOPPED Paying about a year ago...right after he earned his Shodan. I saw him a few week ends ago and brought to my instructors attention that the guy is still training at the juniors club. we sent an email to him informing him that he was not in good standings and he had to clear up the fees that he owed as well as cutting him a sizeable break on his dues we suggested he come down to talk to sensei and myself to clear this up and move on.
His email reply was something like "you guys owe me money because I taught a few classes for sensei and as a graduate of teh education system I am accustomed to being paid for my services as a school teacher. Further I hurt my ankle half a year ago and had to take two months off so you owe me for two months,I have a binding agreement with Sensei over fees and I dont feel I owe anything".
Well, the binding agreement he insists he has....was for a student price that he KNEW he only got till he graduated but he paid so infrequently and basically tossed funds at the old administrator and left after class.
The money issue is one thing but the attitude is another. We also just got word that the same black belt is talking about opening up a school out side of the city on land he purchased and telling everyone he will be the JKA reprosentative for that area, something I can assure you he will not be!
This is not the first time that a "first step" belt has created such a run away ego however and we are just sick of it. We are going to educate people a bit better going forwards I think.
|
|
|
Post by malk103 on Jul 27, 2012 15:42:11 GMT
"Karate stands on the side of justice...." This could be used as an excuse not to grade or accept someone in your club but where you draw the line is a tricky one, someone in their 40's dating a 20 year old is not a crime but who are we to judge them. Good conduct would be more appropriate, I run another club that has open membership and we've had an outspoken racist join, we've had to warn him a few times to keep that to himself - on a similar theme you could say that what you do outside of the Dojo is up to you but leave anything like that at the door. Same for political or religious opinions. For anyone who accepts to keep potentially controversial opinions out of the Dojo then should they be held back from grading? Shodan should be based partly on the person and not 100% on form. A story from my Navy days.... Some Officers/Senior-rates were held back on promotion for things like being an arse when drunk or even having a loudmouth partner - some of the roles included diplomatic drinks/parties so your social habits had to be considered. Your second point about an existing BB who becomes lazy/slack should maybe treated like an employee, in effect they are representing your club so you should have an exit policy for anyone who can't/won't do this properly, start with warnings, written warnings etc. I wouldn't agree that grade can be taken away but if they are banished from clubs and they are an arse then surely they will eventually get very lonely training on their own or have no students. On the case of your rogue Shodan then it looks like your good will has been trampled on, we have a family that struggle to pay properly and will try every trick to miss paying, give you post dated cheques that bounce etc. If I was in your shoes then I would call the money issue quits as your team hasn't dealt with it very well (trying not to criticise!) and you could argue forever about who owes what to who. Personally I would offer to draw a line under it, give him his pay rate and state that if he doesn't pay up front then NO training. Maybe also slip in a verbal warning of some kind? Just ideas/opinions - not wanting to tell you how to do things
|
|
|
Post by elmar on Jul 27, 2012 20:35:29 GMT
... has lost it's focus on outcomes. ... Kyudo ... really appeals to my sense of the ridiculous. No. Kyudo explicitly renounced its focus on "outcomes" as you appear to define them when it redefined kyujutsu into kyudo in the Tokugawa era, and made it into a ceremonial Shinto ritual. Tell me what "outcome" any religious ritual has, and I will tell you what the "outcome" of kyudo is supposed to be. Take the christian eucharist - is the wine to get drunk? That is the explicit outcome of drinking booze, right? Is eating a cracker there designed to reduce hunger? Your "outcome" based analysis fails in this case. Just because Kyudo uses a bow and arrow does not mean that death is the goal. Think of Tae Bo - is it designed for SD? No. How about Shin Taido? Again, no. Both are martial arts derived. Are they all deluded?
|
|
|
Post by kensei on Jul 27, 2012 20:47:08 GMT
Thanks Mal,
I totally see the issue with the way the money was handled. In the end we gave him a "bill" for a small amount and said thats it, from here on out you pay the normal rate as everyone else...thats when he went into his "no you owe me cuz I am a school teacher by proffession" never mind that he is not working as a school teacher at all and at the moment and makes more money working the bar as a bar tender than most of the instructors.
the insult lead to my instructor basically saying he would handle it. If it were me...and keep in mind I like the guy....I would write him a letter telling him to go train at a different club as he is not welcome because of his attitude! Its a horrible attitude that will spread if not cut out like an infection!
|
|
|
Post by Bob Davis on Jul 28, 2012 11:02:54 GMT
Ok, (still stirring the pot to a certain extent ) There are two different questions here and my opinion may not be consistent across both so bare with me. In this scenario it would appear that this guy would have been training for some years without you knowing any of this and so the assumption has to be that none of this has affected his training, behavior or attitude in dojo which must have been acceptable for him to get that far. If he has any (or all) of these character defects I fail to see how "having him wait" will make any difference, (as I may have indicated earlier, young ar*eholes just tend to turn into old ar*eholes over time . If none of the above have affected his behavior in dojo then IMO no it is none of our business, we are not the thought police and by what right (and I've seen it many times) do karate instructors consider themselves qualified to judge how other people live their lives. If the guy was doing anything illegal then there are outside agencies that deal with that (by all means pass on anything you've found out). If you just consider his behavior immoral then it comes down to "by who's standards", unless you have a published code of ethics as part of joining your group that students sign up to then it really is none of our business outside of the associations activities. Now onto the second (and more specific) scenario, (and I sorry if this sounds a little unsympathetic). It sounds, to the outsider, that this is a situation that has been dragging on for a very long time BUT the real issue is that it has been ALLOWED to develop because a number of people have just let it slide. If you are going to have people represent you as a black belt and teach, run classes, have special deals on fees etc.. then all this needs to be clearly defined up front so that everybody have an understanding of the position rather than the "nod and a wink" mentality and the idea that it'll all be alright. If you do this up front on a formal basis then everyone knows where they stand, I understand why this doesn't happen but that is why we end up in these situations. There are two things here, the "if it were me" I think gives you the reason for your frustration, you know what should be done but it's not your final choice (I feel your pain on that one ) and that fact that you "like the guy" makes it even more important that his dealt with appropriately otherwise accusations of double standards could (justifiably) be leveled in future dealings with others. My personal opinion (with the caveat that I only have one side of the story) is that this guy needs to be stamped on hard and either brought into line or go. His personal life is certainly none of our business but what you describe is within dojo and affects (and reflects on) the group. The trick is that you don't ALLOW similar situations to develop in the future.
|
|
|
Post by th0mas on Jul 28, 2012 12:26:18 GMT
... has lost it's focus on outcomes. ... Kyudo ... really appeals to my sense of the ridiculous. No. Kyudo explicitly renounced its focus on "outcomes" as you appear to define them when it redefined kyujutsu into kyudo in the Tokugawa era, and made it into a ceremonial Shinto ritual. Tell me what "outcome" any religious ritual has, and I will tell you what the "outcome" of kyudo is supposed to be. Take the christian eucharist - is the wine to get drunk? That is the explicit outcome of drinking booze, right? Is eating a cracker there designed to reduce hunger? Your "outcome" based analysis fails in this case. Just because Kyudo uses a bow and arrow does not mean that death is the goal. Think of Tae Bo - is it designed for SD? No. How about Shin Taido? Again, no. Both are martial arts derived. Are they all deluded? Hi Elmar I think these things are all about outcomes and intensions, and being absolutley clear about what they are. Practicing sport karate, thinking you're learning str33t d3adly self defence is an obvious example. I know I am being slightly unfair on Kyudo and I am a massive fan of doing something just because it is fun or fullfilling. Having a sense o f humour and not taking yourself too seriously especially when you make a significant commitment to a pasttime that is not in the mainstream (all of us I am sure have experienced this) is very important for self-growth. Take morris dancing for instance, hardly an express elevator for social climbing, but excellent fun to watch and participate in on a nice summers day with a couple of pints of bitter inside of you. I like the fact that Kyudo exists, I like the fact that people take it seriously, however it is in my nature to see humour in these things. In my minds eye i could just see some very senior japanese kyudo practitioner getting all hot under the collar because some newcomer had the audacity to hit the target with his arrows before he had spent 10 years achieveing his Sandan first. I can think of a few times where I have been kindly reminded that my rank in karate means nothing to someone who is new to a dojo. and it is good for me that occationally my own sense of self-importance and ego is kept in check.
|
|
|
Post by elmar on Jul 28, 2012 16:50:37 GMT
Take morris dancing for instance, hardly an express elevator for social climbing, but excellent fun to watch and participate in on a nice summers day with a couple of pints of bitter inside of you. Oh, I don't know - I met my wife through the SCA, after all, and found my girl friends and laymates through East European Folk Dancing <grin>. Actually, just because you hit the target does not mean you did it "right" - your mistakes may simply have compensated for each other. The senior sensei do not get bothered by hits - ever; they do get bothered by attitude, as is appropriate to a ritual ceremony. As for self-importance, kyudo gets rid of that usually quite quickly, since when you are "out there" shooting, you are spiritually naked - everyone can see your attitude (how you approach the shooting, and how you react to it). That is often too much honesty for many, and the drop out rate is very high. Now there are the pathological types, as there are everywhere, but in general, the art is (to my mind) a bit more pure than most martial arts (as a whole).
|
|
|
Post by th0mas on Jul 28, 2012 17:19:06 GMT
Hi Elmar
I bow to your, as ever, greater knowledge of these things.
Personally I didn't have enough patience to do normal archery for more than a year, once I could hit the gold at 40m 7 or 8 times out of 10 I could not get the enthusiasm up to make the signifcant commitment to become an OK competitor. I was a classic victim of the 80/20 rule, just couldn't do the 80% effort to improve the final 20%.
I suspect in Kyudo, I would probably be one of the early drop outs.
|
|
|
Post by elmar on Jul 28, 2012 18:09:31 GMT
Hi Tom - well, I have worked at my kyudo for about 10 years now, and my hit rate is still around the 30% mark (~1 foot target at ~30 meters) , simply because I work (in the dojo I train at) on what is called the Tai Hai and the form of the Hassetsu to the exclusion of accuracy, i.e. trying to do the movements with elegance and deportment. There are older styles (heki ryu sekka ha, for instance) that emphasize accuracy much more, and the "feel" of these styles is much harsher, more "martial" and in a way angrier, the body is more tensed, etc. Modern Kyudo derives more from Ogasawara ryu (the Japanese have ryu for etiquette, you know), in which the shooting itself is conceived of as an act of offering to the Kami, so the arrow hitting is the result of correctness, rather than (as in the West) correctness being defined by the result of hitting. In Western archery, if you hit, it's all good, no matter how you do it or how ugly you look doing it. As they say, YMMV, and I find the study a fascinating travel through my mind - a way to meditate while not having my feet fall asleep
|
|