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Post by malk103 on Oct 15, 2012 20:37:23 GMT
We have a couple of knife attacks that we train against, one is against a knife attack straight to the stomach with a response of stepping to the side, grabbing wrist and twisting the hand round until they are in an arm lock. The next is a downward attack with a response of blocking and locking the arm.
I have always thought that kicking the hand with a cresent kick may be a usefull tactic as you don't have to get too close, just read in someones book that you shouldn't kick as you may get your foot cut open, but in the "street" surely you would have footwear on?
Obviously the best defence is to use both feet and leg it! But if faced with it would you try a kick first?
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Post by robbo78 on Oct 15, 2012 21:43:10 GMT
possible it depends on the situation, if the attacker was angry the chances of kicking the knife out of their hand or away from you would be pretty slim. on the other hand if they are just trying to get your wallet a quick kick when there not expecting it could be quite beneficial, Ive had a knife pulled on me once I did the one thing we are taught first RUN!!! which worked very well that day
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Post by Paul Bedard on Oct 15, 2012 23:11:41 GMT
Good question.
I think that the risk of getting cut is there regardless of the technique used. Either technique that Mal mentioned can either work or get you cut. We train using a wooden knife & kicking with an inside crescent kick, to the back of the hand/wrist this most often knocks the knife right out of their hand. To the inside of the wrist a lot less success. We also do the sidestep while going in & using taisho then tiger mouth to grab the wrist & twist into the arm bar. I tell my students that I believe that my intention would be to break his arm. I would have no intention of going for a submission, I`m yanking the wrist in one direction & snapping the elbow in the other..
However `Running` is most likely the best option....
Osu
Paul B
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Post by snorri1 on Oct 16, 2012 8:07:47 GMT
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Post by malk103 on Oct 16, 2012 9:09:41 GMT
He didn't notice the blade was snapped off and stuck in his arm! Most have been a lot of adrenalin running.
It's odd as I was kicking the finger side of the hand, I think in my mind that the attacker would likely be right handed and I would use my strongest side to kick which is my right... I will adjust it next time to kicking the back of the hand to dislodge the knife.
As I was saying at one point, if it doesn't work then it may have bought you a second or two so you can launch another attack.
It's frightening to think how many people carry knives these days and how many people that have been killed by them.
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Post by jimlukelkc on Oct 16, 2012 10:23:41 GMT
The idea that we can train for knife attacks is flawed, as is the way we train to defend against them. I have been stabbed twice, the second time I never even saw the weapon ! First time it was a craft knife/ scalpel blade which ended up stuck in my deltoid. Attacks with a knife are FAST! I seriously question whether anyone would have time to use mikazuki-geri in those circumstances. Attacks need to be realistic and uke should be resigned to getting cut and attempting to minimise the damage. Studies show that over quite a long distance, knife attacks are faster than guns! It therefore stands to reason that stepping forward a la` oi-tsuki is unrealistic as an attack, rendering any defence pointless.
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Post by kensei on Oct 16, 2012 12:58:19 GMT
their is a misconception here, you can not train for a knife attack the same way you do a knife threat! I have been stabbed on the job twice now....both times I was never threatened by a knife....I was simply stabbed while involved in a altercation. Like Jim said, knife attacks are very fast, and most of the ones that I was involved in came from behind and I was damn lucky to be stabbed were I was (arm, leg and armpit) and not in the side of the neck or some place that would have killed me! I never saw it coming. The set ups and drills we do are more for the times when someone flashes a knife and says "I will kill you man", and then shows you the weapon of choice...then you react and do so with the understanding that its him/her or you! And dont be nice!  Other than that, your attacker will shock you with a knife that was hidden and just stab you or come at you from behind. Most knife attacks are done by cowards that dont show you the knife, tell you that he is going to attack and then does so...its the coward that attacks you from out of the blue! You can not train for this, just realize that any time you are in any kind of altercation someone could stick you with a knife. Any time you are approached for a "Smoke" you could be stabbed and use distance to limit the chances of a attack. Fancy training will get it in your mind that you are able to deal with a knife attack...and get you killed. best knife defense.....distance and paranoia!  |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2012 15:22:19 GMT
I have had a go with some training scenarios for knife attacks. In all honesty they seem very contrived and far removed from reality. Too intricate to pull off in the heat of the moment. I can only speak from a theoretical perspective. Just run away as fast as you can, if pinned down and cornered then punch them in the throat hard. Remember that you were fearing for your life and safety when the cops arrive.
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Post by Bob Davis on Oct 16, 2012 15:58:03 GMT
Which is why we need to differentiate between a "knife threat" where the weapon is show with the intention of causing fear and compliance and a "knife attack" (which is a different thing entirely). Unfortunately most karate dojo's teach "threat" defences as "attack" defences (and more often than not, unrealistic "threat" defences  ), unfortunately, this can lead to a dangerous over confidence against a weapon students (and most instructors) have no real understanding of. |
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Post by Bob Davis on Oct 16, 2012 16:00:23 GMT
I'm sure I have a series of articles by Jeff Nash somewhere on the "knife threat" scenario (certainly have his DVD on my shelf). I'll see if I can track them down and get permission to post them.
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Post by kensei on Oct 16, 2012 20:18:00 GMT
best invention ever to shut up stupid instructors that teach "threat/attacks" like it "Easy" is the paint knife. I saw this used once by a Krav Maga guy that was selling his junk at a community club.....One guy from the drowed grabbed the paint knife to show the guy up and basically painted the hell out of him before he could disarm him and get very upset. Proved my point that you can not defend well against a knife...Unless your gun is already drawn....  |
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Post by Bob Davis on Oct 16, 2012 21:28:40 GMT
The practice knives I use leave a black line on a Gi where ever they touch (it washes out easily enough). Whilst neither the boy or I have any particular skill with a knife it is very obvious that either of us could cut you (or each other) to ribbons in very few seconds and there's be little you could do about it.
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Post by Paul Bedard on Oct 16, 2012 22:55:29 GMT
Quite the story about the Ghurka!!
Paul B
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Post by kensei on Oct 17, 2012 12:48:50 GMT
The practice knives I use leave a black line on a Gi where ever they touch (it washes out easily enough). Whilst neither the boy or I have any particular skill with a knife it is very obvious that either of us could cut you (or each other) to ribbons in very few seconds and there's be little you could do about it. When I was in the army I was told that if a attacker had a side arm and you saw it in a holster you shout Hands up or hault or something while aiming your rifle at them....if they had a knife you just shoot them! The reasoning is that while a gun it holstered you may have the time to change an attackers mind by aiming your rifle at them...a feeling I can tell you is very scary...but if they have a knife drawn...you only have time to pull the trigger! Even a untrained attacker can kill with a knife very quickly, its a kind of instinctual weapon that we all basically know how to use, aim point end at target and lunge in or slash. Hand guns and rifles have safety's and are mechanically somewhat difficult to use if not trained and it harder to hit a person with a hand gun than you would think ( the bullet that is). And I found out from my firearms instructor that we are kind of scared of the big POP that it lets off....so less likely to use it instinctually, we have to think and that slows us down! Knives are best viewed from a block away! |
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Post by bassaiguy on Jan 14, 2013 21:48:22 GMT
When I was a cop our rule of thumb was "21 feet". If you saw a knife within 21 feet of you it was considered a deadly threat. This comes from the famous Paul Vunak edged weapons study where he demonstrated that on average it would take less time to stab and officer than an officer could draw and fire his weapon if the attacker had a knife out and was within that radius. That said, I've never seen anyone stand more than 21 feet away and wave a knife around.
In my younger, more foolish days I disarmed two friends who were armed with knives. Neither was trying to kill me. One was waving it about and trying to impress some girls. I actually successfully kick disarmed him with mikazuki geri. I attribute that to the fact that I was fifteen and very quick and he had no MA background. The other time I did a simple wrist lock disarm, but my pal was very drunk at the time.
The only other time I was forced into a situation like that I was wrestling with a less friendly guy who had a small blade. I got cut on the hand trying a disarm and he freaked out and ran away. If he had wanted to hurt me I would have been seriously cut (at the least). Lesson learned - knife defenses only work when the person is clueless. If someone really wants to fight, stab or cut me I'm not going for the disarm. I'll take some other action.
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jan 17, 2013 17:11:37 GMT
The original question was would you kick a knife? I have trawled youtube and to my dismay there are many out there who would, apparently!
Think about it logically! Is the knife wielder likely to wave it around in an extended hand for your convenience? Should this unlikely scenario play out why would you attempt what amounts to a chudan level kick? It has the potential to compromise your balance and exposes your groin! Knife slash to the femoral artery is life threatening in the extreme and you bleed out very quickly.
In summation, in my opinion, this is a flawed and dangerous response to teach or attempt.
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Post by kensei on Jan 17, 2013 22:11:37 GMT
could not agree more Jim, unless you are as fast as a blink and have the grace of a Gazzell you better keep both feet on the floor. Another accident that could happen is you miss the knife, slightly spin and now he has this big target "your back" to stab!!!!
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jan 21, 2013 12:28:09 GMT
could not agree more Jim, unless you are as fast as a blink and have the grace of a Gazzell you better keep both feet on the floor. Another accident that could happen is you miss the knife, slightly spin and now he has this big target "your back" to stab!!!! I of course move like a snake in oil but even so! |
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Post by kensei on Jan 21, 2013 13:54:55 GMT
I of course move like a snake in oil but even so! LOL ;D ;D ;D ;D |
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Post by nathanso on Jan 21, 2013 16:54:14 GMT
I would kick a knife if I was sure that it would land in the computer of the guy posting the Banana ads.
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Post by kensei on Jan 22, 2013 14:28:36 GMT
I would kick a knife if I was sure that it would land in the computer of the guy posting the Banana ads. LMOA.....I have deleted 10 more today! PLEASE dont frequent this persons place of business...perhaps we can get the to fold! |
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Post by th0mas on Jan 23, 2013 16:50:22 GMT
I would ignore the knife and kick him in the fork.
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), unfortunately, this can lead to a dangerous over confidence against a weapon students (and most instructors) have no real understanding of.
