|
Post by Dod Watt on Oct 20, 2012 15:19:11 GMT
The news has came through as to Steve Hyland's sentence, he has been given 19 years, which is pretty damming.
We ( OSS ) have been accused of trying to cover up this story from other Martial Arts Forums, that is not true, I always said when we started this site, that it would be for the discussion and advancement of Shotokan Karate, not for anything else, but I am only one person, with my own views, and obviously I have not got the right to contain anyone else's, unless other members want us to do so.
I would ask though, if you do want to discuss this, can you please keep it to this thread, and if the other members decide that this is not relevant to karate and want us to delete it, please let us know, as I want to run this site a democratically as possible and without censorship.
I'd like to thank all the members for their continual loyalty and hope that we can move on and make this one of the best resources for expanding our karate knowledge!!
|
|
|
Post by Bob Davis on Oct 20, 2012 15:40:51 GMT
Hi Dod, I think the announcement says all that needs to be said and I have no problem with letting it stand. This was always for the courts to decide and not us (which was always my point).
I've no doubt there will be opinions (we all have them, myself included) but the members will have to decide for themselves whether this is the appropriate venue to air them.
|
|
|
Post by Dod Watt on Oct 20, 2012 15:46:23 GMT
My thoughts as well Bob!!
|
|
|
Post by Allan Shepherd on Oct 20, 2012 17:52:07 GMT
Hello George Surely this cannot be so, read www.thisissomerset.co.uk and ask yourselves why should this "person" be given the time of day by what is in effect a karate forum for like minded people!! Come on, does this site really want to be associated with someone who has been convicted of these vile offences and received 19 years imprisonment at Her Majesty's pleasure? He treated some of the contributors on this and other forum websites with the same disdain and contempt that he treated his victims. Best Regards Allan
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2012 18:23:17 GMT
Let the thread run. The story is in the public domain.
|
|
|
Post by Dod Watt on Oct 20, 2012 18:26:21 GMT
Allan as I said, it is not purely my decision, as it was more or less taken out of our hands by saying we were protecting him by other forums, I would rather stick to what I said and speak about Karate, I do not condone any actions like this, but I have been criticised for protecting him, I am not, I just think that we are in the "dammed if we do and dammed if we don't scenario!!"
|
|
|
Post by malk103 on Oct 20, 2012 18:59:32 GMT
If nothing was said then the Admin team would be accused of trying to hush it up, if you make announcements about it then you are accused of still having links to him or he was a key part of the forum. Damned either way!
A forum is made up of it's current posting users with a few of them in a position to steer it. .... anyway, back to Karate.... ;D
|
|
|
Post by IanM on Oct 20, 2012 19:10:36 GMT
.... anyway, back to Karate.... ;D Unfortunately his knowledge of karate was used by the prosecution in the case and remarked upon by the judge in his sentencing.
|
|
|
Post by malk103 on Oct 20, 2012 19:38:32 GMT
Yes, that was disturbing.
If he had used Karate, or what Karate stands for, then he would not have committed any crimes?
|
|
|
Post by Allan Shepherd on Oct 20, 2012 19:39:39 GMT
Hello George
Like you said let the membership decide!! I work on the basis of guilty by association.
Let me put things into perspective here, certain people on this forum in the past noted that his index offences did not involve his karate activities!! The less said about these "observers" the better.
I beg to differ since his karate activities was something his life revolved around, this was someone who allegedly had been training for many years in an ethos about character, humility, respect etc who not only offended his victims and himself but also the people throughout karate who thought blindly that he had something to offer as a human being.
This is the last you will hear from me in respect of Stephen Hyland.
Let the membership decide and live with their decision.
Best Regards Allan
|
|
|
Post by shotokan101 on Oct 20, 2012 20:27:38 GMT
Well done for posting the info. quickly Dod - I picked up on it earlier today - discussion so far seems pretty civil so I'd let it run its course like any other "Hot Topic" and moderate accordingly Jim
|
|
|
Post by kensei on Oct 20, 2012 21:42:05 GMT
Early on in this whole thing our job was to not let people jump to conclusions and create "the truth" as they wanted to. We had all suffered this kind of issue previously when Cook was figured out, and most of us had a great deal of respect for him on line.
I have spoken with others about this situation alot, and perhaps the most appropriate thing that someone told me was my Sensei. He said "look you know these guys on line and dont have a chance to meet them and see who they really are. Respect what they bring to the table in reference to Karate and nothing more. dont make them out to be more than they are and you wont be shocked if stuff shows up about them down the road".
I dont know many of you guys personally....actually with few exceptions I dont know any of you personally and I dont think I will get the honor of meeting all of you. The truth is I knew and respected both Harry and Steve based on my knowing them on line and our interactions. I also spoke alot with Steve, but his current situation does not change the fact that I did not know him as a person and I should not be shocked that the person I knew on line was not the person he was.
Allan brought up that Steve practiced Karate and thus was associated with the Dojo kun and we would expect him to focus on character development....why? Their are a LOT of instructors out their that lie, cheat, act like biggots and have tones of personal issues that I LOATH as a man....but their Karate is spot on. I never asked Steve for life lessons because I dont know him, I asked him for his thoughts on Karate...and still kind of respect his answers. As a human he has pronion to be flawed and a horrible person who hurt his family and victims to the core...but as a Karate person he still had some answers to things we should remember.
I know of some people who are well thought of that lie about lineage and who are not good people, but accepted as good at Karate and teaching. and I dont disagree with that.
This news about Steve just solidifies that we are not PRO STEVE here, we are just Pro truth and Pro openness around here. the OSS was accused first of being Pro Steve and then trying to hide this fact. We were also accused of being his forum for him to run rampant in. This is obviously not the case, but little minded people had to talk.
Lets not keep this going in other threads, Like the issues with Harry, lets let the courts figure out what to do with them and move on.
|
|
|
Post by malk103 on Oct 20, 2012 22:04:49 GMT
Should their work on Karate be disregarded?
I won't ever buy a book by HC, even if he was very good at Karate. There are plenty of others out there. It is even difficult to read old threads on here, probably even worse for some that SH's thoughts are left up on the forum. If they were to be removed though OSS would be a bit like cheese - full of holes! In time they will fall down the page though.
|
|
|
Post by jimlukelkc on Oct 20, 2012 22:05:22 GMT
Unlike , I suspect, many of you here, I allowed this man into my home and to interact with my grandchildren and the kids in my class. The ripples that spread outwards from his crimes encompass many lives and affect everyone who ever trusted him. Please lets not use this as an excuse to grind whatever axe you feel you have. It is far too serious an issue for that. Personally I will attempt to banish the man from my mind and keep at the forefront the duty of care we all have to the vulnerable members of society.
|
|
|
Post by nathanso on Oct 20, 2012 22:45:24 GMT
I agree that it's appropriate, especially in light of his prolific posts and role helping administrate the site. If anything, it serves as a useful reminder that karate is at heart a physical activity. I think that people who that that it has a magical effect on "character" would be well-served to consider not just cases such as SH and HC but the far more visible examples of legal but poor behavior found in the MA world, just like in all other activities and walks of life.
|
|
|
Post by bagpuss on Oct 20, 2012 22:57:15 GMT
Jim and Kensei please don't look to yourselves as to why you trusted him; on karate or anything. He was a very clever man. You aren't alone on trusting him and being very badly let down. It's natural to trust and take people at face value otherwise the world would be even more horrible. The problem is not you, not this forum and not karate. I think you've handled it completely appropriately from start to finish. Admirably so. He used karate to intimidate but that is not karate's fault. He was a very clever man; the abusers, manipulators and bullies are. But he's gone. Forever. That's good. You and your loved one's are not, nor is karate and this forum. As malk said, in time his musings will slip off the page You guys remain. On him there is finally closure. Let it go.
|
|
|
Post by Paul Bedard on Oct 22, 2012 4:40:10 GMT
Just read this & want to thank Dod for sharing the news. Mighty big of you and I know it isn`t easy. This situation is quite the example of on how some crimes have many victims. The direct & on many levels indirect victims. Kind of feel a bit like an indirect victim! But as has been mentioned enough on this subject & on with karate related topics..
Osu
Paul B
|
|
|
Post by andyupton on Oct 22, 2012 12:42:23 GMT
I am wondering why this hasn't been all over the National news and papers ? We all know how they love to jump all over cases like this. That goes for HC too, and others that we have not heard about.
|
|
|
Post by kensei on Oct 22, 2012 13:01:23 GMT
Sadly, the news of an old man being jailed for such things is not big news. It happens so often that its not as scandless as other equally tragic but more sensational crimes.
Trying to gather info on the issues will prove difficult as its not as (pardon this) "Sexy" an issue as others. The news writers want stories that are more interesting to the viewer and less tragic. Sad really when you think about it!
the fact that Steve was a Karate guy is not important as the victims in this case were not students, as was the case with HC, and they were not really kids he looked after in his home, from what I have been told. Its more a family man with crimes against family...this sadly happens all the time.
My heart goes out to the victims and I am still realing from the whole thing. A big part of me still wants this to be lies and he is innocent, but that is not so. Not just because Steve was a decent foil in Karate, but because it means their are more victims in the world than used to be!
|
|
|
Post by genkaimade on Oct 22, 2012 19:07:59 GMT
I am really quite shocked by this. Before anything else let me say that I am of course not condoning what Steve has been convicted of. I am just quite shocked. I haven't read the case notes, so will not comment on them either.
What I will say is that at the tender age of 17 (and I was an immature 17 year old), Steve welcomed me into his home for a course. At no point did I feel threatened or the alike, he treated me practically like a son and with respect. His karate similarly was the best that I have ever seen (granted I am not that experienced), and his karate teaching was second to none (again in my limited experience). Regardless of him now being in prison, I hope that he is allowed to finish his book, as it promised to be one of unparalleled practical wisdom.
Just to repeat, I am sickened by the crimes committed, I am just saddened by the loss of a real karate great here in the UK.
|
|
|
Post by kensei on Oct 22, 2012 21:38:05 GMT
I am really quite shocked by this. Before anything else let me say that I am of course not condoning what Steve has been convicted of. I am just quite shocked. I haven't read the case notes, so will not comment on them either. What I will say is that at the tender age of 17 (and I was an immature 17 year old), Steve welcomed me into his home for a course. At no point did I feel threatened or the alike, he treated me practically like a son and with respect. His karate similarly was the best that I have ever seen (granted I am not that experienced), and his karate teaching was second to none (again in my limited experience). Regardless of him now being in prison, I hope that he is allowed to finish his book, as it promised to be one of unparalleled practical wisdom. Just to repeat, I am sickened by the crimes committed, I am just saddened by the loss of a real karate great here in the UK. I am kind of looking at it like you are, granted I had less personal contact with the man. Much Like Harry Cook, anything that Steve touched Karate-wise will be tainted a bit, but like someone else asked...Should it. I mean his crimes aside and other issues that people have with him, he was a brilliant Karate person. He was personable with those he liked and he hid much of his mean side from people till it came out rocketing in your face. I would not buy Harry's book because slapping down over $100 canadian for a book drives me nuts and it better have some damn interesting ideas in it...and be on sale at a HUGE discount! As for Steve, I dont think he will finish his book. i am fairly sure he is pretty much like Harry...Done! sad to see people choose unwise in their lives and harm others in any way!...especially when it catches you sideways!
|
|
|
Post by Paul Bedard on Oct 23, 2012 4:29:32 GMT
Feel for you & others like you that trained under Steve Alex, for you knew & respected the good side of the man. Like Kensei I am also somewhat in shock, as I thought I was getting to know a very well experienced karateka that had much to share. I don`t think that the book will ever get finished now nor do I think that a reputable publisher would want to back anyone convicted of these types of crimes. Like I said earlier, a bunch of people most likely feel like indirect vicitims. I know to a certain degree, I do...
Osu
Paul B
|
|
|
Post by Bob Davis on Oct 23, 2012 12:09:50 GMT
Hi Alex,
Like yourself, I (and my family) have been a guest at Steve's. I was made very welcome, both by him AND his wife (who we should not forget in this while we are feeling sorry for ourselves), was well treated and learned a great deal from a karate point of view and had come to think of him as a "mate" as well as a teacher.
From that personal experience it's difficult to reconcile the two faces of the same person (although from conversations I've had off-line since this started it's obvious that some had different experiences) and I suspect it'll take a while to come to terms with it and make the adjustment, (doesn't happen overnight though I'm afraid).
|
|
|
Post by th0mas on Oct 24, 2012 12:49:42 GMT
I would echo everything Bob has said. I have tried to write a comment on this a number of times but each time I have failed to adequately express what I feel and never submitted my words.
I personally don't like appearing knowledgeable after the event and am trying very hard not to be.
I am also having a real problem reconciling my experience of knowing Steve personally with what he has been found guilty of doing...His wife and kids were absolutely lovely people and I got no "vibe" from them at all (not that I am claiming to have some kind of magic sense).
Although I can not comment with any authority on Steve's personal life, I can talk from a karate experience perspective.. Steve was our senior instructor and had a major influence on the way we trained. I have been around the mill and have trained with many different types of shotokan instructors from many different organisations and affiliations and I can safely say that he was one of the most interesting and challenging instructors I have had.
Personally I will not hide the fact that we were associated and I will not dismiss the training I received or the value brought to our club. To be clear I also include in this, some of the physiological stuff and some of his stated values he would bring to a training session. All were valid and all were principles I personally strive to have....even if they don't square with what he did in private.
In summary he was certainly not an easy instructor to be associated with and we always felt that chaos seemed to followed him around. I don't think what has happened invalidates what he taught, it really was in direct opposition to what has now transpired. I am just very sad this has happened and my thoughts go out to all the victims and in particular his family.
Essentially I think I am in bereavement for something that has been lost...or was maybe never there in the first place.
|
|
|
Post by makoto on Oct 24, 2012 13:11:50 GMT
Why does he claim to be innocent? Is he saying the girls are lying? If it were just a one on one accusation I could understand him saying he is innocent. But there are mulitple accusers with similar stories it would seem. How can he say he is innocent when it seems he has been clearly pronion guilty? What is his state of mind, or mindset? What are the grounds for appeal?
|
|
|
Post by kensei on Oct 24, 2012 21:37:03 GMT
Why does he claim to be innocent? Is he saying the girls are lying? If it were just a one on one accusation I could understand him saying he is innocent. But there are mulitple accusers with similar stories it would seem. How can he say he is innocent when it seems he has been clearly pronion guilty? What is his state of mind, or mindset? What are the grounds for appeal? I know of two occasions were a person convicted/investigated claimed to not be guilty of the horrible offenses. One was not lying and was found to be innocent in the end...and both girls recanted a year after the whole thing blew up..the other was guilty and trying to get off. After it set in he finally said he did it and went through the process of finding and healing his issues..and appologized to others. Dont know what his grounds are for an appeal and we see he was convicted but I dont know much about it other than that. Guilty or innocent all we can hope for is the courts get it right and take care of business no matter what the outcome is. If he is guilty he needs to be punished and if not he needs to be released! No matter what the outcome is...their are alot of hurt people.
|
|
|
Post by bagpuss on Oct 24, 2012 23:44:45 GMT
I know of two occasions were a person convicted/investigated claimed to not be guilty of the horrible offenses. One was not lying and was found to be innocent in the end...and both girls recanted a year after the whole thing blew up..the other was guilty and trying to get off. After it set in he finally said he did it and went through the process of finding and healing his issues..and appologized to others. Dont know what his grounds are for an appeal and we see he was convicted but I dont know much about it other than that. Guilty or innocent all we can hope for is the courts get it right and take care of business no matter what the outcome is. If he is guilty he needs to be punished and if not he needs to be released! No matter what the outcome is...their are alot of hurt people. This makes me cry. There is no 'if'. He is guilty and the courts got it right. It's really over. Do you know how much the odds are stacked against the victim to prove beyond ALL REASONABLE DOUBT that they are a victim?? YEARS AFTER?? Do you know what the victim has to go through to do so?? Especially if the monster claims repeatedly the victims are "DAMAGED". Aaaaarrrrrgh. In too many cases, the guilty walk free in sex crimes becuase it is SO DIFFICULT to prove beyond all reasonable doubt. I wish you could hear a copy of that tape recording!! Can the admins please block my IP to this site?? Ban my account!! I cannot trust myself to not come back and want to grab you and scream in your face "HE IS GUILTY!! GET IT!! MOVE ON!! HE IS GONE FOREVER!!". I know he was a karate hero. God, do I know this, but he was a monster. I hope every day of the 19 years he learns HUMILITY. If he is bitter that he thinks he is innocent then good!! Please ban me. Stop me coming back!!
|
|
|
Post by Paul Bedard on Oct 25, 2012 4:22:52 GMT
I`m sorry Kate, but I don`t believe that we should ban you, as you are passionate about your feelings. I am hoping this this subject will pass & those that feel the need express themselves & lets get back to sharing our karate experience. Not focussing on one individual, for what ever reason.
Let`s move on people!!!
Paul B
|
|
|
Post by Bob Davis on Oct 25, 2012 9:08:44 GMT
Hi Kate,
I understand your frustration, we are all coming to terms with it in our own way (it will pass), and we don't all have access to the full story.
Perhaps the occasional kick up the a*se will actually help, but please hang in there and bare with us.
I don't want to take an arbitrary decision but might I suggest we lock this thread now (I think it's said all it needs to say) and any of us who still feel the need to talk it through take our discussions off line.
|
|
|
Post by Dod Watt on Oct 25, 2012 9:22:43 GMT
That is a good decision Bob, as I said when I started the thread, it is up to the members if they want it to run, I only started it out of pressure by other groups saying that we were protecting Steve and that it was his site, which we all know that on both counts they are wrong. I find this topic very hard to look at, let alone post any comments.
|
|