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Quotes
Oct 25, 2012 12:26:51 GMT
Post by jimlukelkc on Oct 25, 2012 12:26:51 GMT
Iain Abernethy posted this today.
The quotes show that the masters of the past thought that kata without application was “useless”, that karate training should include locking and throwing, that the directions in kata have nothing to do with the angle of attack, that the idea of the kata being for multiple “opponents” who attack in turn was “nonsense”, that awareness and avoidance training is vital, that we should hit first once conflict can’t be avoided, that there is no such thing as a “pure style”, and so forth.
It’s all stuff that those listening to these podcasts are likely to agree with; and yet those like us often find ourselves labelled as “revisionists” or “mavericks”. The fact is though that the more pragmatic and holistic approach which we subscribe to is actually far closer to what was being practised in the past than the “traditional karate” of today
Any comments? agree? disagree? Discuss!
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Oct 25, 2012 14:29:03 GMT
Post by kensei on Oct 25, 2012 14:29:03 GMT
OMG, I knew I was a maverick! have been saying this stuff for two decades now and believe in it totally. If you dont have a purpose to your Kata then dont do it. if you think you are fighting two or more people at one time...Try it...it aint as easy as a kata lets it out to be if thats what you think...its one on one and different components on how to deal with different situations.
Totally Agree!!!
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Oct 25, 2012 15:07:15 GMT
Post by malk103 on Oct 25, 2012 15:07:15 GMT
I've just been listening to it as well (at work....) I find his work absolutely brilliant, not that he needs putting on a pedestal like the past masters, even he says we should question everything! Part of this way of thinking only really works if you want to teach and learn Karate how it was probably originally intended or if you are just happy doing dance routines for long enough to get a Black belt and boast to your mates. It also goes to show that not all past masters were perfect idols of the Art as a couple of his quotes suggested we should associate with prostitutes and engage in hard drinking competitions! I will give this a 3 month trial and get back to you..... ;D It has an interesting point about how far back we should go to get true Traditional as well. www.iainabernethy.co.uk/content/masters-speak-podcast
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Oct 25, 2012 15:41:42 GMT
Post by th0mas on Oct 25, 2012 15:41:42 GMT
Any comments? agree? disagree? Discuss! I have been a fan of Iain's stuff for a long time and when I first came across it, it chimed with my own thinking and desire to train in a way that was more pragmatic and scientific than based on dogma, faith and tradition. He is a dynamic teacher who has taken what he believes and made it happen for himself, which I have utmost respect for and not a little green envy... The weird thing is though that this more pragmatic approach is something that I have striven to put at the center of my training and thinking (not altogether successfully) for such a long time that It comes as a surprise when I meet senior karateka who don't share my views! (clearly I have a god-complex ) It's funny that you train in your own bubble with people (in the majority of cases) who essentially agree with you (or maybe just tolerate you) and then you discover to your surprise that a whole bunch of others havn't followed you down that path! and still cling to the concepts and ideas that were taught back in the 70's, 80's and 90's. Anybody who does a bit of research into the history of shotokan karate can only come to the conclusion that was is labeled as "traditional" is only about 60 years old, and geared towards a more sporting martial style with parade ground pretensions. I cannot be persuaded that the originators of the fighting art were not pragmatic and would not have striven to develop an effective self-defence system. I therefore have concluded that, when interpreting shotokan karate, a pragamatic view of legacy techniques and applications can only be good for the practitioners and the style they practice...
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Oct 25, 2012 16:15:53 GMT
Post by Bob Davis on Oct 25, 2012 16:15:53 GMT
I think what we are suffering from is a case of "National Trust" syndrome. Somebody has taken what was a living, breathing, developing art and taken a snapshot of it with the context removed and said "this is what Shotokan is" and since that time it has pretty much been all about making the shapes and forgetting about the context.
However, if we are talking about "traditional shotokan" (tm) I suppose there is an arguement to be made that the National Trust version IS the traditional version and trying to put the context back into it is a break from tradition. I know which version I prefer but it's quite ligitimate to say we are doing it wrong in "traditional" circles.
It comes back to the old chestnut of whether "traditional" karate is about kicking, punching and generally messing people up with the minimum of fuss OR if it is in fact a performance art intended to develop and perfect character through a set of demanding calasthenic exercises with no martial content at all.
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Oct 26, 2012 11:20:38 GMT
Post by th0mas on Oct 26, 2012 11:20:38 GMT
agreed Bob, to paraphrase Iain Abernethy its all about context, context, context.
It is in the nature of humans, albeit because we haven't moved far from being curious monkeys, to innovate, optimise and transform. Any activity we undertake will be optimised both consciously and unconsciously to refine the activity to best meet our goals. This is no different in Karate as it is in ballroom dancing or building a house.
If it is a sport with a rule set then you will train and innovate and adapt what you do to try and maximise your score. If you de-couple the original goals or aims of your activity then overtime the shape and structure of that activity WILL change. The problem is that sometimes the means-become-the-end and then you get the bad side of tradition..Dogma, unquestioning faith etc
So what about the JKA (as an example of a number of "traditional" karate organisations)? I would suggest that the JKA has created a self-fulfilling rationale for training. The context is not self-protection and it is not really sport either (as the sporting rules are already based on fighting principles defined within the JKA style ).
I am not trying to be hyper critical of the JKA, but I think it is a good example of a martial art style that has created it's own means to an end...If you look at the JKA, they have over the years evolved their karate style based on adherence to a visual style and formal way of fighting that if we are honest with ourselves does not resemble real-world str33t conflict. The JKA, as custodians, have mandated how the style should be performed and so accordingly its practitioners over the years have honed it to meet their own arbitrary (in my opinion) standards rather than as a tool to handle some external requirement (like self defence or fighting a duel etc).
So The top JKA practitioners are very very very good technicians of the style, if they happen to also be able to handle themselves in a real fight, that is by happy coincidence rather than by design..
..You can see that eventually, over time, the style may become completely devolved from any reality based conflict due to the lack of external context to keep it grounded.
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Oct 26, 2012 12:38:19 GMT
Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2012 12:38:19 GMT
I am also a fan of Iain Abernethy and think that his message on karate kata and bunkai is spot on. What ever style or brand of karate you do training should focus on the context and purpose of your karate. Be it sport or self defence.
Have to say that I do not like the term traditional karate. Too open to interpretation and holes can be picked into it easily. Historically there have been great changes and adaptations to the whole of karate and that makes the idea of traditional being a bit of a joke. Funakoshi's masters created and changed things to fit in with the school system, he took it from being a one to one learning experience and practice to large group practice. Funakohi himself adapted it to fit in with Japanese society. In the west we have changed it to fit in with our western ways and language. Better to come up with a better term to describe the context, ie sport, self defence or recreational.
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Oct 26, 2012 12:40:25 GMT
Post by elmar on Oct 26, 2012 12:40:25 GMT
"Tradition" is by definition marked by a time and a place. I tend to refer to "classical JKA karate" when I speak about the various dogmas within the flow of culturally defined pugilism.
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Oct 26, 2012 12:44:02 GMT
Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2012 12:44:02 GMT
Elmar, I think the phrase 'classical JKA karate' is a good one but how would you define or describe the purpose of classical JKA karate?
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Oct 26, 2012 13:15:22 GMT
Post by malk103 on Oct 26, 2012 13:15:22 GMT
When I first saw some application video's for Kata I was a bit confused as they were extremely basic, unless they were designed just to assist in the learning of the Kata or to show only basics. When i've viewed some recently they are almost joke worthy, how can you call the opening slow moves to Heian Yondan a block!?!?!
Again it boils down to what the students want out of it, most clubs seem happy to just do the 3 K's and little Johnny passes his grade for doing approx 1 hour of Karate a week and goes home happy. It annoys me to think how many people have given up out of boredom because they were just learning dance routines and still managed to get punched by the local bully. Most people that stick with it will hopefully eventually realise that Karate is much more, or they will go to a course run by an instructor like Iain or read OSS!!!
I doubt if we will ever get all Karate-ka to agree on this but it is very frustrating when you hear people repeat their version of the truth because that's what they were told... That's not a criticism of anyone here or anyone I train with by the way. ;D
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Oct 26, 2012 13:55:29 GMT
Post by Bob Davis on Oct 26, 2012 13:55:29 GMT
Heaven forefend that we ever criticise (sorry to take your quote out of context BTW ) but isn't that how we ended up where we are today to a large extent? Since the thread is about "quotes" I lifted this out of the article I posted recently, we just need to propagate a culture where this is an acceptable approach.
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Oct 26, 2012 15:43:42 GMT
Post by th0mas on Oct 26, 2012 15:43:42 GMT
When i've viewed some recently they are almost joke worthy, how can you call the opening slow moves to Heian Yondan a block!?!?! I would argue that in fact it is a type of "block" ...and this is a good example of where looking at the form and trying to match the shape to an application rather than focusing on the movement..can lead to a load of pants. A good rule of thumb; where a kata performs a slow technique it can indicate either a complex technique or one where the emphasis of the demonstration of the movement is something other than speed, such as timing or strength.. So i look at yondan's opening movement as a capture and trap, following with an arm lock and punch to the back of the head. Difficult to show with out a video but essentially the principles are: - Slip to the outside of a thrown right hand punch
- The two "blocking motions" both left and right, combine into a catch of the arm on your right forearm (your left hand used as a guiding hand).
- ...flowing into the second right-side "block" which grabs the arm and pulls the opponent into an arm lock.
- Step forward with the "x-block" which in essence is a hold down of the shoulder and a punch to the back of the head.
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Oct 26, 2012 20:31:00 GMT
Post by malk103 on Oct 26, 2012 20:31:00 GMT
Hold my hands up Bob - I was criticising others for being openly critical.... I was thinking more of the people who post on Youtube saying that steps in the Kata were wrong or the Kata was poor. Mainly because their club or their Sensei does it differently, but because they practice traditional Shotokan then they must be right... Kind of leads into your next statement! As for Yondan, I saw a senior Japanese Sensei show in a video that the slow move was to block an Oi Zuki launched from 3 meters away. To me the first move is the hands thrusting downwards fast, trapping, deflecting or grabbing, I prefer the application of the slow move as grabbing and slowly twisting something upwards - like a head. I've also seen the initial thrust down as grabbing the wrists of someone attacking from behind, both arms are pivoted on one shoulder and the attacker is thrown, the slow movement is then a similar grab/twist/lift. Bit of a stretch of the Kata but worth a look. I will try yours out if I can decipher it.
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Oct 26, 2012 23:18:51 GMT
Post by elmar on Oct 26, 2012 23:18:51 GMT
... how would you define or describe the purpose of classical JKA karate? Quite easily actually - karate derived by Japanese from Okinawan kihon optimized for use in a kendo competition format, under kendo rules.
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Oct 27, 2012 7:31:29 GMT
Post by th0mas on Oct 27, 2012 7:31:29 GMT
... how would you define or describe the purpose of classical JKA karate? Quite easily actually - karate derived by Japanese from Okinawan kihon optimized for use in a kendo competition format, under kendo rules. Oh cr*p, you said in one sentence what I tried to express in a paragraph...
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Oct 27, 2012 16:25:34 GMT
Post by Paul Bedard on Oct 27, 2012 16:25:34 GMT
Hi guys some good stuff here. However as I read material like this it gets me thinking, about the difference between `Do` &` Justsu`. In my opinion GF went the way of `Do` to place Karate in a position that it can be learned by the majority of people, with the goal of improving personal development, both in a mental (spiritual) & physical sense. To me the physical part of Karate Do is about the perfection of technique. `Do` is not about fighting & how to use this or that technique in a way to destroy another human being. My opinion is that `Jutsu` is the concept of breaking down another person to a point where he/she can no longer be a threat. Now is there an overlap between the two, of course there is & this comes out in self study. Where we pursue information that we as an individual require. However not everyone who practices Karate Do cares about how they can effectively make this turn into a throw or the fact that even though the first moves in Heian Yondan even though they demonstrate body control, at that speed seem to be lacking. Most orgs teach traditional style of karate as a means of learning `Do` When you get to the point that I see so many are doing in trying to figure out what every technique or sequence can turn into this is turning into `Jutsu`. More of a `MMA` mindset. Nothing wrong with that. Just not `Do`. Osu
Paul B
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Oct 27, 2012 18:14:05 GMT
Post by jimlukelkc on Oct 27, 2012 18:14:05 GMT
I think Funakoshi was well aware of the point of kata practice and said something along the lines of Kata must be practiced continuously ( once learned ) until it becomes instinctive as practice without intent was pointless. ( not a direct quote ) Karate as "Do" is a concept that has gained precedence only relatively recently. Go back to the 1930`s and it is obvious , regardless of style that Karate was intended to be a civilian defence system. That is, to be used against someone with no knowledge of karate, for your own defence. As most of the kata date back to before then, we can infer that all the movements have a defensive meaning and it is therefore a legitimate study to try to re-discover those meanings.
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Oct 29, 2012 16:20:10 GMT
Post by th0mas on Oct 29, 2012 16:20:10 GMT
I will try yours out if I can decipher it. I think I will try and add some further information to help.. The trick is to realise that your dealing with a real-life attack... in other words it is not a single technique (as per ippon kumite) but a flurry of wild blows launched at you by an untrained assailant. The self-protection principle for the application covers; shifting to move yourself out of direct line of attack and apply techniques to close down the flurry of blows. Both arms are used to ward off the attacks as you shift left . In application the arms don't move straight up but more in a clockwise curve from the 6 position to the 12 position on a clock. This is augmented by the shift to the left. As soon as you have made connection with your opponents leading right arm then you flow into the second block. The Principle here is the concept of "pinning their arm to the sky". You have raised the arm with the first block and now you pull the opponents arm down to your right hip while shifting your position to the right and back. (remember that all moves in the kata are in relation to your opponent at that moment in time, not to your orientation at the beginning of the kata). This whole sequence has to be done quickly and with good timing. In reality you may just be back pedaling, with your arms raised to ward off the attack as the flurry of blows come in, then as you get the opportunity you shift left and the sequence starts... What I like about this interpretation is that it works from the flinch reaction. In a real fight you are dealing with such intense aggression that it can be completely debilitating. I want an application that can enable me to regain control from my initial panic reaction, arms raised, ducking, cringing...and probably squealing...
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Oct 29, 2012 16:23:59 GMT
Post by th0mas on Oct 29, 2012 16:23:59 GMT
...oh and if it doesn't quite work you just follow up with the initial techniques in heian nedan...
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