|
|
Post by malk103 on Jan 9, 2013 15:09:40 GMT
I was looking to start a new evening in a new area in the fine art of teaching Karate to beginners, I did a search and found a hall right in the middle of the area, it belongs to the local Church so I sent off a request about hiring the hall.
Back came a reply on the available slots on the requested evenings so I replied asking to book Wednesday evenings and went on to introduce myself and explain that the club was fully insured, enhanced CRB checked (UK Criminal checks) and were fully house trained and have several popular clubs already running in the area.
Back came their reply that they didn't hire to Martial Art clubs!!!
I politely replied back stating that Karate is an art form and our club promotes respect, humility, discipline and general fitness during its lessons. Here is their reply:
Acknowledging that your motivation is sound, we are aware of the deep Eastern religious and philosophical roots that all martial arts share. Because of this, and the different worldview that this promulgates, which we feel is in contrast to the Christian worldview, it is with regret that we must decline your request to use the hall for this purpose. Thank you for your patience in allowing us to consider the implications of your application.
Now correct me if i'm wrong but does the average Karate class turn people into Budists or make them anti Christian? Are things like respect and humility not alike to core Christian values? On a local level would the average towny be happy that more people were prepared to spend their evenings actively doing something positive for the local community instead of moaning about the kids causing trouble "because theirs nuffink else to do"
There is a new hall in the next town that are also ignoring my emails, they have plenty of spare places in their bookings but the existing bookings are all zumba, painting or flower arranging sort of events so I think i'm knocking on another closed door.
I know of several MA clubs that use church halls, has anyone else come across this sort of discrimination?
|
|
|
|
Post by elmar on Jan 9, 2013 17:12:00 GMT
*sigh* Fundamentalists ... you are apparently a competing cult, so no way are they going to give you any aid or support.
|
|
|
|
Post by Bob Davis on Jan 9, 2013 17:39:56 GMT
I've not had anything that specific but have had the "We don't want THAT SORT OF THING here" from a local school head mistress some years back.  |
|
|
|
Post by dek1 on Jan 9, 2013 21:51:05 GMT
Its not fundamentalist to decide a group is not in keeping with your beliefs. Ask them if they would reconsider if you think the hall is the right place for you. A lot of churches and christians view the bowing and dojo kun to be worship (false in their eyes) and not a mark of respect. or it could just be the contact part of our martial art being percieved as promoting violence that causes them conflict
|
|
|
|
Post by kensei on Jan 9, 2013 22:20:30 GMT
we stick to the community clubs mostly, simply because you dont have to worry about stepping on any over sensative toes. However we do have a number of very religious members who dont mind training with us.
I think the denomination will dicated the response you get considerably. I know at one time I did a Demo out side a church for some friends and it went over very well, but I was passing by two people talking about it and they said "yah, very exciting stuff" the other guy asked if we were going to have a "team" in the church..the guy other guy, whom I assume was some one higher up in the church said "Dear goodness no, can you imagine?".
We have had a few clubs in churches in the last years but the churches belonged to denonminations of a more middle of the road nature...not any of the "born again" fundamentalists or uber-right wing kind of churches.
|
|
|
|
Post by dek1 on Jan 10, 2013 19:34:57 GMT
Why would anyone describe someone who is saved as a fundamentalist? please expand on this view point does it expand to those who subscribe to karate also and view themselves as being right all the time on training ect? Or is it only for those of a religious belief
|
|
|
|
Post by kensei on Jan 10, 2013 20:26:04 GMT
Why would anyone describe someone who is saved as a fundamentalist? please expand on this view point does it expand to those who subscribe to karate also and view themselves as being right all the time on training ect? Or is it only for those of a religious belief I am going to be frank here...I am not a christian, have not interest in talking about religion in general and dont want to get into a debate about "Saved" vs "Fundamentalists" vs what ever! I dont debate religious people because their is no debating them! even if you make a solid point it is shot down and I am "Damned to hell"! Been their and got the tee shirt, so other than chatting about the fact that some Churches are more open to having a Karate program in their four walls and roof...I am not getting suckered into this conversation. sorry!  |
|
|
|
Post by Allan Shepherd on Jan 10, 2013 20:57:20 GMT
Hello James
I think you have already began a "debate" over religion when you say that you THINK the denomination will dictate the response!! One very very big brush stroke.
Three things my good old Dad instilled in me was never to get embroiled in Football, Politics or Religious debate as all three are very very subjective.
Best Regards
Allan
|
|
|
|
Post by tomobrien on Jan 10, 2013 21:28:17 GMT
Three things my good old Dad instilled in me was never to get embroiled in Football, Politics or Religious debate as all three are very very subjective. My dad taught me the same  |
|
|
|
Post by malk103 on Jan 10, 2013 21:30:20 GMT
I normally live life by not debating Politics or religion as it always ends up in an argument, I apologise for raising the subject.
I was more keen to know if anyone had come across similar situations and refused the hire when they found out what the activity was. There are 2 halls that I would like to book, one is ignoring my requests and the other (Church) has flatly said no.
My Religious beliefs are mine, i've not been swayed by doing Karate to change my beliefs and my Sensei has probably stood next to the person who wrote the email on a Sunday morning.
You would have thought that if you owned a hall then you would want to have people renting it and it not sitting empty.
|
|
|
|
Post by kensei on Jan 10, 2013 22:00:47 GMT
Hello James I think you have already began a "debate" over religion when you say that you THINK the denomination will dictate the response!! One very very big brush stroke. Oh, Allan I can always count on you |
|
|
|
Post by jimlukelkc on Jan 11, 2013 15:07:28 GMT
One of the present halls we use has changed its standing from a church hall to a community hall but is still used as a place of worship every other week due to its attached church falling into disrepair. Consequently the vicar is on the committee. I mentioned to the kids in the class last year that we were throwing a Halloween party for them. We were told we could not as the vicar somehow views this as anti-christian .
I have little patience with this sort of thing but did not argue, we just held the event at the other hall.
I have no problem with people questioning my activities or requesting clarification but when people act out of pre-judged ignorance it really boils my feculence .
|
|
|
|
Post by Paul Bedard on Jan 12, 2013 5:15:27 GMT
Have been questioned & felt the need to explain, that when we bow it is a gesture of respect, much like a handshake. When we bow to the shomen this is a gesture of respect, to the org, the founder & past & current leaders. We could also do this to, the flag, a picture of the Queen, Prime Minister, A symbol of God or whatever that you feel strong enough about to show respect.
In fact we do train in a church hall, but I have made it quite clear that we do not cover any religious philosophies or beliefs as I am not qualified & it is not my job.
I have also explained that even though we call the highest ranking people in the org `Master`, they are not my master. What they are is a master of their craft, much like having a masters degree in any given academic field.
So yes some are confused, my first Sensei in the JKA/ISKF was a very devout christian. He asked me one time if I believed in God & at that time I thought that I did, so I told him that, but I don`t believe in religion. The topic never came up again.
I train, with people from a wide variety of religions & cultures, we treat each other with resoect, but we don`t try to question or influence each others beliefs, as the dojo, or dojo related activities are not the place.
For the record, I was brought up Roman Catholic, went to Catholic school & was even an alter boy. I have been totally turned off by religion & am very much Agnostic.
This is me & my belief, I hope that you can respect mine as much as I respect yours.
Oh & to really make you upset, I don`t watch football of any sort either.
Mal it`s too bad that you have come across such a closed minded group. From what I see, a lot of religions are are actively participating in some public events & treating each other with respect, regardless of their belief I think that the one common denominator is to be a good person.
Now I could get on to preaching the dojo kun..
Osu
Paul B
|
|
|
|
Post by nathanso on Jan 12, 2013 6:07:39 GMT
We have some people who do not bow (for religious reasons) to shomen durng the opening and closing ceremonies. It's no big thing.
|
|
|
|
Post by dek1 on Jan 12, 2013 9:50:16 GMT
Paul your post is so much more refreshing than the derogatory post made by James. I have my own beliefs being brought up in a brethern family but they are mine and if i want people to respect my upbringing and beliefs I also need to respect theirs. In our club religion is not a part of it we have all sorts but the one thing that is a core part of the club is respect for the fellow student. The banter in the changing room is the building blocks for respect and the hard training along with trust that we have. My first Karate instructor in 1982 gave up because it conflicted with his beliefs but I have never seen a conflict of my relationship with God and the Dojo practices. Ignorance is one thing we all come accross in all walks of life, its here in the forums just by reading you see this. If the hall has misconceptions of the club I would advise you challenge this but if they still wont budge then its their loss of income.
|
|
|
|
Post by Allan Shepherd on Jan 12, 2013 20:43:09 GMT
Hello Derek
Many years ago I read an article in Fighting Arts International magazine by Terry O'Neill of a Franciscan Friar who studied and taught Shotokan Karate.
Google (great font of knowledge) "The Philosophy of Martial Arts" by Franciscan Friar Seamus Mulholland OFM....8th Dan Shotokan and 6th Dan Batto-Jutsu which gives great insight into how his calling to the church compliments his Martial Arts and vice versa.
Best Regards
Allan
|
|
|
|
Post by kensei on Jan 13, 2013 2:45:33 GMT
Paul your post is so much more refreshing than the derogatory post made by James. I have my own beliefs being brought up in a brethern family but they are mine and if i want people to respect my upbringing and beliefs I also need to respect theirs. Dek, My apologize you were offended by anything I wrote....go back and re read it however as NONE of it was any more derogatory than anything else. In fact I am fairly sure it was not at all... I dont see any place that pointed out any one group over another or named any names as far as different groups specifically. I stated that the results that you get may depend on the denomination that you are dealing with.....How is that in any way Derogatory and I challenge you to disprove it! Now having said that, this is EXACTLY why I try not to talk religion with others...especially those that partake in Church going ext. |
|
|
|
Post by garage on Jan 13, 2013 8:20:53 GMT
I have found that I have ended up training in some very shabby areas on the wrong "side of the tracks" or town as they are the only people who are prepared to rent to me.
On the right side of town often employing private security to keep violence out why would they invite violent thugs to come to your area? As most of their children would not be involved in MA.
You may argue that we are not violent thugs but that is their perception.
To rent in better areas I have had to get know committee members councillors MPs etc so you become a face so they are not refusing their stereo type they assume you are.
I hope the success of TKD at the olympics will improve the quality of the facilities we are all able to rent.
|
|
