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Post by jimlukelkc on Jan 24, 2013 12:21:50 GMT
There has been debate here about how to perform gyaku-tsuki and its function but how does everyone view oi-tsuki. I would suggest it appears as often in kata as Gyaku and therefore should be viewed as equally important but is it? whats its form and function?
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Post by malk103 on Jan 24, 2013 13:50:34 GMT
I all assumed that Gyaku tsuki was the strongest punch as you are putting more hips into it, I read somewhere that Oi tsuki was the strongest?
Maybe I read too much....
I've seen some Kata applications where this is used to push into the nexk rather than punch someone in the face, this makes more sense to me as you may do more damage and there are less bony bits. I think it can also be interpretted as a push to the body or face.
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Post by th0mas on Jan 24, 2013 13:51:43 GMT
Hi Jim
I was following a similar discussion on Iain Abernethy's forum about this...
So to paraphrase myself... I actually quite like Oi tsuki as a self protection technique (but not how it is applied in classical karate dojo's)
it is a perception thing.. rather than looking at it as "a stepping punch" you should view it as a "punch with a step in it". There are many applications for this type of motion (including a number of arm locking and controlling applications)..But even at a very basic level (grap, step and punch) it can be very effective.
Put simply - striking whilst, using your momentum, stepping forward to unbalance and simultaneous clearing obstacles from your target... has a lot of merit from the "defenders" position.
As an "attacker" the whole concept of Oi-tsuki from long range seems wrong to me.. If personal protection is a key training goal for you, practicing to defend from a single punch to the head in the classic Block-counter model is not realistic... As a defender you should be focussing on handling the flurry of attacks (some of which may involve stepping forward). containing, controlling and then dominating...
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jan 24, 2013 17:10:35 GMT
Hi Jim I of motion (including a number of arm locking and controlling applications)..But even at a very basic level (grap, step and punch) it can be very effective. Put simply - striking whilst, using your momentum, stepping forward to unbalance and simultaneous clearing obstacles from your target... has a lot of merit from the "defenders" position. As an "attacker" the whole concept of Oi-tsuki from long range seems wrong to me.. If personal protection is a key training goal for you, practicing to defend from a single punch to the head in the classic Block-counter model is not realistic... As a defender you should be focussing on handling the flurry of attacks (some of which may involve stepping forward). containing, controlling and then dominating... Playing devils advocate here but not a long-range technique then?
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Post by Paul Bedard on Jan 25, 2013 5:38:41 GMT
If we think of being attacked by more than one person, oi zuki might be a method used to attack an offender while getting inside his defences, while at the same time creating distance between you & a second attacker behind you. I can assure you that if oi zuki is done properly with the momentum involved it can be quite devastating. Other applications are quite feasible, like I mentioned you are now possibly inside his defences & in trapping &/or grappling range. Might also be used as momentum to get behind your opponent..
Paul B
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Post by th0mas on Jan 25, 2013 14:10:18 GMT
Hi Jim I of motion (including a number of arm locking and controlling applications)..But even at a very basic level (grap, step and punch) it can be very effective. Put simply - striking whilst, using your momentum, stepping forward to unbalance and simultaneous clearing obstacles from your target... has a lot of merit from the "defenders" position. As an "attacker" the whole concept of Oi-tsuki from long range seems wrong to me.. If personal protection is a key training goal for you, practicing to defend from a single punch to the head in the classic Block-counter model is not realistic... As a defender you should be focussing on handling the flurry of attacks (some of which may involve stepping forward). containing, controlling and then dominating... Playing devils advocate here but not a long-range technique then? Hi Jim I absolutely think that Oi-Tsuki can be a viable long to medium range technique for self-protection... What I meant by long range, in my post above, was the rather artificial Oi-tsuki punch commonly used as the main opening attack for 5,3,1-step kumite. In the way it is normally performed i would not catagorised it as a Habitual act of violence. Cheers Tom
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Post by th0mas on Jan 25, 2013 14:32:45 GMT
If we think of being attacked by more than one person, oi zuki might be a method used to attack an offender while getting inside his defences, while at the same time creating distance between you & a second attacker behind you. I can assure you that if oi zuki is done properly with the momentum involved it can be quite devastating. Other applications are quite feasible, like I mentioned you are now possibly inside his defences & in trapping &/or grappling range. Might also be used as momentum to get behind your opponent.. Paul B Hi Paul, I agree in fact last night we were were practicing using the Oi-tsuki in just this kind of way.. We practiced using it as a defence from being grabbed on the arm and stepping into your opponent and the slightly more complicated opposite technique...as an attacking move that leads through control and domination to finish... Three Oi-Tsuki's; the first is a step and grab of the opponents leading arm, followed by tug to hikate and step punch (2nd Oi-tsuki) to side of head, then the final punch is delivered once a firm grip has been achieved to the back of the head and using your weight whilst stepping to further unbalance your opponent, you finish with the final punch to the back or side of the head... What is nice about this application of Oi-tsuki is that you are continually unbalancing and disrupting your opponent, never giving up your momentum... If he happens to be quite tall (my training partner Dave is 6'2"), it is useful to either make the 2nd "punch" or add an additional "punch" as an arm lock to help drop his head down to facilitate the final punch to the jaw or back of neck. (I hope I was able to explain this... it would be so much better with a video..)
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Post by Paul Bedard on Jan 25, 2013 23:47:22 GMT
It`s all good!!
Paul B
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jan 27, 2013 9:26:18 GMT
All valid points but I always view oi-tsuki as a training tool to emphasise how to deliver mass. Using the hikite to control the opponent and driving through the target. Imagine colliding hips with your target ? The initial drive from the back leg, un-weighting the front leg then pushing through. Front knee bent to deliver the maximum amount of mass and cover the maximum distance possible.
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Post by garage on Jan 27, 2013 13:29:01 GMT
Mas Oyama does not agree. Kyokoshinkai considers oi tsuki as the strongest punch. Some of the basic kata are set with oi suki replacing gaku suki as the stongest punch.
Losing all that momentum that you get with a front lunge punch how can a reverse punch be stronger? Repeated stepping reverse punch you can feel moment being lost as you control the forward momentum.
Your face is also closer to the target in a reverse punch. So the momentum of a front punch easily makes it stronger than a reverse punch.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2013 17:18:08 GMT
I think of it as striking whilst pursuing your opponent, be it in a sport or self defence scenario.
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Post by tomobrien on Jan 28, 2013 1:03:34 GMT
With some small modifications you can use it like a boxing jab as well IMHO
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Post by th0mas on Jan 28, 2013 6:35:00 GMT
... Using the hikite to control the opponent and driving through the target. Imagine colliding hips with your target ? ... Hi Jim Although I agree with you, I am not sure the "training tool" analogy is mutually exclusive.. as Oi-Tsuki has merit as an "acutal" application in it's own right. In the triple "punch" sequence I mentioned above, the third "punch" is where we were performing the "colliding hip"action you describe. Cheers Tom
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jan 28, 2013 11:39:40 GMT
Well I view sequences of three techniques in kata slightly differently however I did not suggest any mutual exclusivity as qualified by my opening with "All valid points". However The point of drilling basic techniques to "perfection" is so that it is an instinctive movement. So that the principle comes naturally. In application it will look a little rough around the edges and needs to be applicable from many angles/distances/targets. A training tool is what all our kihon practice is and the principles behind them. Stepping forward in a self-protection scenario is probably going to occur less often ( pre-emptive strike etc.) but still I maintain the main aim would be to deliver mass behind the punch. In kumite I agree that it has merit to change distance and coupled with kuro-tsuki can be an effective combination.
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Post by th0mas on Jan 28, 2013 21:49:13 GMT
Hi Jim
Again, I agree with you and I am also an advocate of stances being the final snapshot that represents a movement (e.g. front stance showing the delivery of mass moving forward, horse stance showing the delivery of mass by dropping down).
My original point was that I just think that people look at the "classical" Oi-tsuki, as it is normally executed in shotokan dojo's, as being a single entity (and therefore has little merit in self-protection) -which is counter productive, as it makes more sense when you break it down into the stepping motion and then also a punch (as each has a varying application depending on the situation)
.. the three techniques by the way, was actually a coincidence (although not lost on my training partner and I).
Oh, and what is kuro-tsuki?
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jan 31, 2013 14:24:57 GMT
Sorry i did not reply in timely fashion Tom, that was a typo and should have been Okuri-tsuki. It is where the punch is thrown in transit, an example is here youtu.be/NrazSiiApAA
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Post by kyshotokankaratedo on Feb 5, 2013 19:36:25 GMT
I think most of us use oi-tsuki more often than we think. If you watch sparring you will see it all the time. The timing maybe a little different than the standard presentation, but it is used all the time. As far as the standard oi-tsuki and its use in one step sparring and other partner drills....it may not be the punch you see on the street. However, if you are pushed the distance can be created to step and punch. Also, in kata there is always the reach hand. If you grab and strike it becomes a powerful fight ending move. In my mind, oi-tsuki is not the end all be all but it is another tool in the tool box.
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Post by D.Ram on Feb 14, 2013 4:51:41 GMT
Your face is also closer to the target in a reverse punch. Is this being said with respect to a specific stance? In Zenkutsu, for example, will oi vs gyaku really make a difference in terms of distance of face?? I was thinking - if you're in a jiyu kumite stance, and then try to apply oi-tsuki, it instinctively feels like it will come out weaker than a gyaku due to the hip twist in gyaku...perhaps I would use oi-tsuki in case I plan to lunge at the opponent, and a gyaku in case the opponent is already at close range? Will need to consciously try this in the dojo to get my own answer straight
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Post by th0mas on Feb 14, 2013 9:14:47 GMT
Hi Deepak
Dave Hazard (a famous UK Sensei) once said to me "It doesn't matter how it feels to me, it's how it feels to you that counts".
I think that as Karateka we fall into that trap quite often, as a lot of classical shotokan training is done in the "air" and the only feedback a practitioner has is themselves. This leads to a whole raft of problems not least bad body mechanics for the generation of powerful strikes.
On a basic level you often see karateka over tense their techniques (especially when first starting) and hitting things (bags, makiwara etc) tends to cure that over time...
But it also applies to personal perception of the effectiveness of a particular technique. A gyaku-tsuki feels more powerful when in a rooted or stable stance, put much less powerful when you are stepping forward etc.
However the effectiveness of the punch is totally dependent on the speed, acceleration and mass of the karateka. The reason we engage the hip with gyaku is to shift as much of our body mass into the technique (+a lot of acceleration) - essential if we are standing still. Whilst an Oi-suki s designed for movement and generates is power from the step forward.
In some respects the whole question of context or situation is the most important, basically using the right tool, for the right job at the right time. There are also, as discussed in this threat, a whole raft of additional fighting benefits that are not immediately obvious if you only fight at sparring range, or your training over emphasise your karate-"air-technique"-form verses more pragmatic results-based training (basically hitting things).
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Post by jimlukelkc on Feb 14, 2013 13:16:16 GMT
There are some very knowledgeable contributors on this forum, great stuff! As an aside, Iain Abernethy has posted a possible explanation for age-zuki recently which is definitely worth consideration.
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Post by garage on Feb 14, 2013 20:21:16 GMT
Hi Deepak
Alot of times people face you off in a boxing stance as they have done a bit of boxing. I find that you go toe to toe with a boxer their hands are fast and they throw a flurry of punches.
One thing you can do is cover distance with a stepping punch that is what shotokan is good at often you can get them before they realise what you are doing.
The reverse punch puts your face closer and puts the boxer on his home turf which he is probably better at. So cover distance and don't let them get comfortable. Not starting with them in the first place is probably better but it passes time whilst waiting for the police to arrive.
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Post by tomobrien on Feb 21, 2013 2:21:52 GMT
Seen people Ko'd by, what looks like oi tsuki in boxing. The guy throws the punch with his rear hand while stepping forward & if it connects it puts lights out
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Post by garage on Feb 21, 2013 6:24:16 GMT
May I recommend "Championship Boxing and aggressive defence" by Jack Dempsey. It was written in the 50's and describes how to do this.
In 1909 Jack 180ibs punched out Jess Willard 250 lbs. There is a video on u tube to watch.
3 months to punch out someone your own weight 6 months for heavier. As it was turn of the century he had a background in bareknuckle boxing so it is full of practical advice and of course written in plain american.
Using a vertical fist like wing chun Bruce Lee style it shows the stepping punch off the back foot heel up.
It is free as pdf download, what you got to lose?
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Post by jimlukelkc on Feb 22, 2013 15:05:15 GMT
Have just read the above book. Brilliant!
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