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Post by kensei on Feb 4, 2013 12:38:22 GMT
For years I have been reading about the "fact" that Karate in Okinawa had the right way to do bunkai, and that they were the ones that were doing it right....we Japanese Karate people were learning poor bunkai...then I saw this......https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDgCs3N8jeA.....and It changed the way I see things.
the instructor is telling his student in the interview portion that Miyagi never taught bunkai, in Okinawa they dont teach bunkai...just Kata...kata and more Kata.
Interesting and a bit informative!!!!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2013 8:50:22 GMT
It was hard work listening to that video but interesting. Am amazed that he said miyagi did not teach bunkai.
I love doing karate and reading about all it's many facets. However I am always saddened that part of the history and legacy of karate has been harmed by practices of the past that involved; secrecy, lack of questioning by students, lack of explanation and clarification by past instructors. If only we could go back in time and communicate with the past masters we could really document exactly what these people really intended with kata bunkai and application. It feels like that today we spend a lot of time speculating about past practice!
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Post by kensei on Feb 6, 2013 19:46:47 GMT
preaching to the flock brother!
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Post by malk103 on Feb 6, 2013 22:20:48 GMT
Would they tell us?
I sometimes think that we learn something better if we find it out for ourselves, we will also remember it forever. I have been to a couple of semina type sessions but can only remember fragmented bits, for the drills/bunkai/applications that I have learnt/discovered and practiced/drilled they are stuck in my head.
It seems that we differ in the West that we want to know everything and we want to know it now. I sometimes think that some great teachers withheld from passing on their knowledge too easily in the hope that we will learn on our own or cut our own path.
As i've been teaching this year, part of me wants to tell my students everything I have learnt but now part of me wants them to follow but with their own discoveries, I can guide them in the right direction, show them Kata and correct their stance but the ultimate transition into a good Karateka is mostly down to them.
Saying all that I really would like to travel back in time and ask the questions too!
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Post by garage on Feb 7, 2013 6:45:48 GMT
I think the real question is could they tell us?
Having trained before the internet struggled with books 8mm film, etc I am confident that we have access to more information than someone in the 19th century.
It us up to us use what we got instead of waiting for someone to tell us. Firstly would they tell us ? do they know? secondly if they know would they have any reason to tell us anything?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2013 10:52:11 GMT
I believe that Mal is right to say that we often learn better if we find out for ourselves. However, finding out for ourselves is a mixture of many things: Investigation, Pratice and experimentation by self and with others is one part, another part is enquiry, be it from written or visual media or discussion on the internet or with face to face contact with real people.
In many student teacher relationships in eastern and western culture and across a wide range of subjects teachers do indeed withhold information as a way of promoting self discovery of knowledge. However, when a student has tried to find answeres to questions and reached a point where he can no longer find what he is looking for then surely the teacher should be a guide by helping and informing.
The secrecy of karate practice in the old days of Okinawa has recently been called into question. Here is what I base my knowledge of karate secrecy on.
Our old Okinawan friend G Funakoshi wrote in Karate Do Nyumon, "with weapons banned, the practice of weaponless combat methods was soon shrouded in secrecy, for the Ryukyuans were understandably reluctant to have it known that such things even existed. Fighting methods, and especially matters pertaing to karate instruction and training, were kept carefully concealed from the eyes of the Satsuma... there is no comparison with the great precaustions that were taken to guard karate in the Ryukyus, which included a self-imposed ban against keeping written records.
Maybe we should not just travel back in time but go and pick up these old dudes, bring them here to modern times and say, look your styles of art, self defence have been transformed to suit modern ideas of fitness, self defence and sport. They have become part of a global culture. What can you do to help us understand the past? How did you practice? Why create Kata? What did the moves mean to you?
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Post by kensei on Feb 7, 2013 18:22:50 GMT
Our old Okinawan friend G Funakoshi wrote in Karate Do Nyumon, "with weapons banned, the practice of weaponless combat methods was soon shrouded in secrecy, for the Ryukyuans were understandably reluctant to have it known that such things even existed. Fighting methods, and especially matters pertaing to karate instruction and training, were kept carefully concealed from the eyes of the Satsuma... there is no comparison with the great precaustions that were taken to guard karate in the Ryukyus, which included a self-imposed ban against keeping written records. I may get struck by lightning on this one, but I dont think that Funakoshi was correct in his assertions that Karate went "hidden" or dark at some point. I would point out that many of the stories of Itosu and Azato point out that many people knew they were Karate adepts and also their instructors were well known...I have my doubts and think that this Dogma is just marketing hype created by someone wanting to spin history.
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Post by jimlukelkc on Feb 8, 2013 10:01:59 GMT
I have no reason to disbelieve that karate was practiced with some degree of secrecy. I think it would have been an open secret amongst the Okinawans but kept secret from the occupying forces. Okinawa was annexed by both the Satsuma and the Chinese so they would have been used to being duplicitous and playing one side off against the other. Funakoshi tells of practicing late at night and being careful of who saw him.
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Post by kensei on Feb 8, 2013 13:05:27 GMT
I have no reason to disbelieve that karate was practiced with some degree of secrecy. I think it would have been an open secret amongst the Okinawans but kept secret from the occupying forces. Okinawa was annexed by both the Satsuma and the Chinese so they would have been used to being duplicitous and playing one side off against the other. Funakoshi tells of practicing late at night and being careful of who saw him. Look at the facts and not the "story". First off Itosu and Azato worked for the governement in a "body guard" possition like many Samurai did in Japan....work doing the books 99% of the time and stand up to protect the king 1% of the time...they were the equivalent of Samurai class cast members. Sukakawa was also a government "body guard"/ employee when he was alive and also taught royal family members the martial arts he was learning, infact Itosu and Azato did as well. So, the okinawans had no issue with them knowning and learning martial arts...... At one point or another cultural and martial exchanges occured between the Chinese and Okinawans and the Japanese and Okinawans. The facts are presented many times over, like Azato being a trained Japanese sword fighter and horse back rider (meaning fighting off horse back) and Sukakawa trained with the Chinese military members that came to Okinawa. The "marketing" idea that this is a big secret and illegal may have grown out of the teaching methods of the masters, not wanting their secrets getting out....granted its speculation I am now adding to the mix...but the fact is that these men were well known by others as Karate men....the "Secret training at night or breaking dawn does not pan out. I could offere some speculative explanations for why they trained when they did...but the truth is no on will know the truth...but we do know some of the facts that counter this kind of story telling and for me....it just does not pan out. Use of Occams Razor just states that given the facts the whole secrecy thing is just a load of bunk.....and the sad part is we will never know. However, what we can know for sure is by the time Funakoshi started training it was not a secret anymore...hell he learned about it in school from a school buddy and seems to have been a lower level Samurai family member so its not just the elite hiding their knowledge. And you see pictures of MANY body sitting with young funakioshi and his instructor....so not a one on one secret ninja training session held at midnight....by any stretch. Azato was a Jigen ryu (sword) master as well as a Karate master, and he was well known as this...per Funakoshis own words......Matsumura was "Well known" as a Karate expert and had a reputation as an expert in martial arts...you would think that during that time any expert in fighting would be watched close by the satsuma and maybe in jail or killed off...it was not as nice a time as it is now a days...easier to slice a guys head off than worry about him down the road! Matsumura traveled to Japan and learned Jigen ryu, which he passed on to Azato and sent him to Japan to train further. So, Matusumra the well known Okinawan Chikudun Pechin was trained by Satsuma Samurai in sword fighting...but the martial arts were banned in Okinawa? I dont think so. Let me know what you all think about adding a bit of logic to counter the story telling.
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Post by malk103 on Feb 8, 2013 14:44:45 GMT
Having a day job forces most people to train in the evenings, also apart from a bit of bragging amongst students, for a large number of people Karate is a private hobby/sport/obsession/activity... If you were to advertise it then some people would see it as a challenge, I think someone said on here that they had a party in a pub for passing their Shodan and a lot of the locals saw it as a challenge to see if they could punch the new Black belt.
Just a lesser educated slant on things....
Maybe we spend too much time trying to find the creator or the source and we should be concentrating on what it is today?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2013 15:48:14 GMT
I think the in crowd; Azato, Itosu etc knew of each other and what they got up to and chose to tell the stroies of the past when they evenentually went public. But the commoners of the time, probably not. No mention anywhere that the great and good were giving out public demonstrations or lessons to the masses. When Funakoshi demonstrated Karate to the Japanese it was new to them. Given that the Japanese occupied Okinawa surely it was no big secret then they would of known, learned it and then imported it into mainland Japan sooner.
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Post by garage on Feb 8, 2013 15:52:15 GMT
Funakoshi wrote all sorts of things over a long period.
"Karate is good military training which helps to install disipline and introduce Japanese culture to countires that have been invaded."
He wasn't quite as modest as his writting made out, in fact his writings contradicted his own rules as he seemed to actively seek media attention. Giving demonstrations to the Emporer and seeking out Kano from Judo to sponser him. He also describes showing how strong he was with strength tests to show off as described in his autobiography.
If you read the other view points of the founders of other styles they thought little of him and thought he was a fake. As the confrontations with other famous karate ka the outcome depends on who wrote them.
I suppose if everyone tells you are great you start to believe it. Some of his writing are just plane silly.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2013 17:14:43 GMT
I do agree that Funakoshi was a strange sort of guy. He was an academic and new how to promote himself and his art. He was a bit of a showman and a bit of a diplomat. I wonder if a lot of karates grappling methods were lost because he wanted to fit in and not challenge the established grapplers of judo and jujitsu.
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Post by garage on Feb 9, 2013 7:41:05 GMT
Here lies the irony. Nakayama was also an academic most of the senior Japanese instructors are graduates.
One of them told me he had replied to an ad on the university noticeboard before he came to the UK.
So none of them show any practical experience other than dancing in the university gym with there mates. So it is now about 3rd hand.
So I am agreeing with the points Alan and Kensi made where they have not let truth spolit a good strory.
The irony for me is that if someone from the west posted here from an academic background we would all jump on them and talk about being real and in the street. Where as many of the instructors from japan are more academic then real and street.
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Post by Rob S on Feb 9, 2013 8:34:40 GMT
Academia in Japanese karate is not what we perhaps make it out to be! If you notice most of these guys went to a university and graduated with a Bachelor of Economics degree or similar. It is entirely possible that they did not go to many academic classes, but engaged in sports (in this case karate), for the good of the alma mater. Similar to US Universities and basketball and scholarship, or the police in the UK in the 1970's where rugby players were given carte blanche.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2013 8:52:32 GMT
I think that's a good point Rob. They probably need the economics to manage their global franchise and come up with ways to get our cash and spend it on the best cars. Ha ha ha
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Post by kensei on Feb 9, 2013 11:52:35 GMT
Okay, lets take a step back here...my favorite saying apparently. Okay, so the stories are bunk for the most part and I think we can all use our brains well enough to see the swiss cheese they are based on!
However, I have to say that the Karate instructor bashing is entertaining, I would double any one of you would walk up to Tanaka in his prime, Yaguchi in his prime and say "Yah, you are just an accedemic" or even Nakayama...my guess is Nakayama would bow and smile, Yaguchi would do the same then politely ask you to spar...Tanaka...well he would just rip you to shreds and spit on your corps!
The thing is for a bunch of "Smarties" they have skills. Dont forget that Yaguchi Sensei was once suspended from the JKA Head quarters for taking out a bar full of Yakuza, Yahara Sensei had a beef with local goons when he beat up 7 of them in the streets and they learned their skills from Nakayama who developed the JKA from Funakoshis style...so, using our brains again...Im thinking that the toughness of the men is not something we should be questioning.
I once read (sorry cant recal anywere particular) that Nakayama once tossed a US Marine around for 10 minutes to warm up and hit the guy so hard in the solar plexus that he was done at the 10 minute mark.
Yes, I know Karate and Shotokan training is not UFC stuff and we dont have many reps in the MMA world to prove our toughness, but neither does Judo, and for the Millions of new BJJ guys, only a small percent do MMA....the argument that "real world" martial arts experience is lacking in Karate...well it is in all systems....How many Krav Maga guys are their competing in the UFC/MMA world...last check NONE so they say our style lacks realism...Machida held the belt in MMA for a while...name a Krav guy that did the same...in any organization.
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Post by kensei on Feb 9, 2013 11:53:23 GMT
To add to that...the use of Shotokan Bunkai...application...is demonstrated by Machida very well when he ko's guys for real on internationally broadcast PPV's.........
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2013 16:26:50 GMT
I would not knock or have a go at their karate skills, I am quite happy to admit they could knock the living daylights out of me. We were just joking tongue in cheek about the economics degree.
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Post by nathanso on Feb 9, 2013 21:11:43 GMT
When I started in Okazaki's dojo in the 1960's, we used to joke (among ourselves, that is) that he looked in his street clothes and glasses like the econ major that he was in college, and that was a prime example of how you shouldn't take anyone's toughness for granted. For that matter, Kisaka and Enoeda didn't look all that scary either back then.
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Post by Rob S on Feb 9, 2013 23:04:34 GMT
Kensei, nobody said they were not good.
My point is simple. GF used the universities to capture the imagination and acceptance of the Japanese. Had he not gone that route, then probably karate would not have really taken off in Japan. So he scored a bonus.
The majority of the JKA instructors came out with economic type degrees! Why? Why that subject? Perhaps because it was awarded for attending the uni? Perhaps the main point was to get good karate-ka in their midst, for the alma mater. In the JKA the university divisions are hotly contested and very very important! So get the boys in (same as Football or Basketball in the US) to win your divisions. Repay with a degree perhaps?
As for the Yakuza stories, well, do we really believe that? Do we believe the most dangerous people in Japan are so scared of guys in white pyjamas? Great stories, but if really true surely those pyjamas would not have been worn for too long?
Back to the topic in question: According to Teruo Chinen he learned the bunkai from Miyagi Sensei and then when he later trained with Miyazato he learned the kata, and it fell into place as he had learned the yakusoku kumite first!
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Post by tomobrien on Feb 10, 2013 23:39:22 GMT
Interesting thread about the 'old days'. Hey we can see Machida back in action soon - Light Heavyweight Title Eliminator: Dan Henderson vs. Lyoto Machida @ UFC 157 on Feb. 23. It's not gonna be an easy fight for 'The Dragon'. Remember what Hendo did to Bisping?
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