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Post by genkaimade on Nov 1, 2010 22:58:02 GMT
Bob, I really do have to ask: why on earth are you still with this organisation?
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Post by Bob Davis on Nov 1, 2010 23:40:17 GMT
I've wondered that myself many times
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Post by Paul Bedard on Nov 2, 2010 5:07:03 GMT
Bob, I would just echo Alex`s question, so enough said there. However I will say that with having your senior student at 5th kyu, I`m certain that they could care less about what organization that they are with, they are learning from you & that is all that matters. I`m sure that if you were to switch orgs, that you`re students would just go with the flow. Hard to deal with I`m sure. I don`t envy you, but good luck. Also please don`t fell the need to apologize for venting, I think that it`s important for these types of frustrations to be known & come to the surface. That`s what this instructors space is for `Instructors`, it would be ludicrous to think that all of our experiences were wonderful!! Osu Paul B
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Post by Dod Watt on Nov 2, 2010 8:38:22 GMT
Bob, you rant all you want, I know exactly what you're going through, I had the same decision to make 24 years ago, and I'm glad to say I made the right one. We should be enjoying our karate whether training or teaching, and the whole sense of being part of an org. is to help you develop your karate and your club, and if you as the main club instructor is not happy that will reflect on your students. Bob I have met you only once, but I know you have a passion for your karate and a hunger for more information, so I know you will make the right decision
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Post by Bob Davis on Nov 2, 2010 12:15:56 GMT
And that's probably the biggest part of my problem, despite my often flippant approach and an unwillingness to take myself too seriously it turns out I DO really care, (if I didn't all this would be easy, ho hum). To answer a previous question, the reason I stay (so far) is that 95% of the time everything's ok, I have a good teacher (both technically and approach wise), some good mates, enjoy the training and generally have fun. There's al (small) amount of crap which I generally let wash over me as an individual. They've always been poor at organising anything (which always makes me smile as they pride themselves on being well organised) but have definitely got a lot worse over the last couple of years and our plans seem to change with the wind. Focus is now very much saving cash where ever possible (which I can understand) but it's now to an extent where it is having a detrimental effect on my students. My own fault for taking that big step I suppose, if I were just training as an individual still I guess I'd just be mildly irritated and just tut occasionally or have a bit of a moan over a pint.
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Post by fujicolt on Nov 2, 2010 19:10:17 GMT
Bob, May I respectfully suggest the following:
Firstly, and i think you have realised this, the dilema you face is no longer a dilema that only involves you.
it is very clear that you have developed into 'Sensei' for your students (rather than just someone who takes the class) and for you (you aren't just helping out by taking an odd class or two - these people matter to you and you have invested in assisting them with their Karate future)
It is also apparent that you have also invested in the organisation you are part of and have followed.
I am unsure of the details but it appears to me that you are being used to run a club/class for them but have little or no say about factors that effect you or your students (and they clearly have become your students first and association members as a secondary factor - I strongly suspect that if questioned the vast majority they would know little of the association and state 'I train with Bob Davies'.
I believe the dissonance you are experiencing is an accumulation of several factors and needs calm thought and structured planning to deal with. I would politely suggest the following.
Firstly, I would suggest that you ask for a private but formal meeting with the Associations Senior people. You must be clear and detailed and inform them of the factors that you are uncomfortable with and why you are uncomfortable.
their response will give you all the knowledge and information you need to empower your decision making from there on.
If their response is positive and understanding and offers mutually agreed solutions that are acceptable to all - fine and good and you should stay.
If their responses are anything other than that - well it ain't rocket science is it?
tis 2010 England - tis not 1450 rural Japan! If they are unable to accept that Shu Ha Ri is a desired process in Karate then they are simply distorting Japanese concepts to suit there power base - but if they listen and help you resolve it they are worth the continued investment from you and i am hopeful they would thereafter see and value your attitude to students and support and even use that to the good of the group.
Good Luck Bob but i am sure you'll sort it.
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Post by Bob Davis on Nov 3, 2010 22:17:58 GMT
Well, having used this as a dumping ground for my frustrations I think it only fair to give you the follow up. I've had a number of conversations with the association secretary and explained why this situation is a problem for me, I've yet to talk to our association head but that will happen next week. In the meantime I have been passed the message from him that special arrangements will be made for my students such that they can continue on the original time line (pretty much), worst that will happen now is that they'll have to wait an extra week for their grading which I don't feel is a big problem. Still need to sort the details of dates and locations but the probability is that pre-grading and grading for my students will take place at my dojo in normal training time, just in extended sessions. That's probably as easy as I can make it for them. What I do need to do now in follow up and make sure that a) I have a say in next years calendar and b) to then keep the pressure on to make sure (as far as possible) to stick to it! Thanks for listening to me moan
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Post by fujicolt on Nov 4, 2010 0:56:25 GMT
Bob
forgive me if i have misunderstood but what I cannot understand is -
Why is it not you (as the Club Senior Instructor) who is setting the Grading Dates, Venue and times?
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Post by Bob Davis on Nov 4, 2010 11:46:52 GMT
Hi Steve,
To be honest Steve a lot of the stuff we do doesn’t make much sense if you examine it closely and tends to be historical (the old “we’ve always done it this way” trap). It could be construed as excessive control but I personally think it's more an unwillingness to let go of what we once were and face the reality of where we are now.
When I first started we were a lot bigger association than we are now. Each region (Northern and Southern) would have a mass grading (probably around 60-70 students) 4 times a year. It was a chance for everybody to get together and train/get to know people from other dojos and then to all grade together.
Now we are small our chief instructor travels to the local dojos, in my patch there are 3 within about 15 min’s drive of each other so we get together at the central location but we are still hanging on to the “everybody grades under the chief instructor at the same time, 4 times a year” idea. Last grading, which was at the end of the school summer holiday so only one of mine did it, (I’d normally expect 10-12 out of my lot), had 4 students from the 3 dojos grade, Northern region I believe had only 1.
He just makes life difficult for himself really running around all over the country just so he can be there for the students (and to be fair to him I genuinely think that IS why he does it) but you end up with the silly situation of typically a dozen Dan grades (some with 20 years at Dan grade themselves) turning up to support the grading and all sitting behind the table to watch 3 or 4 kyu grade students go through their paces and have him make the decision (which is another can of worms I won’t go into at present).
Given that my dojo runs at a local school and the students are predominantly school kids (or families of) then there is no way to make this philosophy fit around the school calendar so it will always be a problem unless we can come to an understanding. I’ll see what comes out of the conversation next week.
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Post by fujicolt on Nov 4, 2010 17:03:48 GMT
Bob
I am sorry but what you describe seems to be somewhat of a nightmare to me but i do not think it appropriate for me to discuss the organisational processes of another Organisation here.
However, I will say this - I can direct you to a number of very high ranked and long serving karateka who are in their 40's who began their Karate as Child or adolescent students of mine. It would have been a tragedy if they had stopped their study of karate due to something as simple as disruption of their need for structured and consistent educational processes and assessment opportunity's that various studies have shown are beneficial to children and young people.
I again respectfully suggest you re-read my post above and meet with them. you never know you may create the possibility for them to re-evaluate and improve matters for everybody (including themselves) - which is nice!
Ultimately I would suggest as both a Karateka and a Parent - you need to prioritise needs here and i would hope it would be the needs of your students that would be prominent in your mind.
We forget sometimes - especially with Child Students and their parents - they pay us a massive compliment by turning up, lining up and in doing so saying;
Please teach me I want to be good at karate
or
please teach my child I want him/her to be good at karate
Would you want your children to study at a Academic school who say - the GCSE's will be on this date and we know this means you cannot be there but we have always done it that way!
Go talk to them Bob.
Good luck.
Good Luck.
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Post by Bob Davis on Nov 11, 2010 14:35:46 GMT
OK, well I had the conversation last night with the chief instructor and the club secretary (in the neutral ground of the pub after training which probably helped ) and they were surprisingly accommodating. I think that the club secretary is currently quite supportive as what I'm looking to do sort of sets a precedent for some of the things she'd also like to do going forward (and has probably wanted to do for some time). I have reorganised everything for my dojo this year to suit what I thought best for my students and they (chief instructor and secretary) are putting themselves out to fit in with this. We have discussed what needs to change for next year to make sure we don't end up in the same situation again. There are still some details to put to bed on that to make it work within the rest of the organisation but I think that the changes I'm looking to make (which are relatively minor really) could be of benefit to them as well as me and will give me the chance to teach some karate rather than just chasing the gradings (although that path will still be open for those that are that way inclined, this will be driven by the individual student however rather than the groups timetable). All in all I'm now (cautiously) optimistic and we'll see if we can keep this up or if the wind changes direction again at some point
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Post by genkaimade on Nov 11, 2010 15:35:42 GMT
OK, well I had the conversation last night with the chief instructor and the club secretary (in the neutral ground of the pub after training which probably helped ) and they were surprisingly accommodating. I think that the club secretary is currently quite supportive as what I'm looking to do sort of sets a precedent for some of the things she'd also like to do going forward (and has probably wanted to do for some time). I have reorganised everything for my dojo this year to suit what I thought best for my students and they (chief instructor and secretary) are putting themselves out to fit in with this. We have discussed what needs to change for next year to make sure we don't end up in the same situation again. There are still some details to put to bed on that to make it work within the rest of the organisation but I think that the changes I'm looking to make (which are relatively minor really) could be of benefit to them as well as me and will give me the chance to teach some karate rather than just chasing the gradings (although that path will still be open for those that are that way inclined, this will be driven by the individual student however rather than the groups timetable). All in all I'm now (cautiously) optimistic and we'll see if we can keep this up or if the wind changes direction again at some point Well done! Here's to hoping things keep going that well! Alex
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Post by fujicolt on Nov 11, 2010 16:47:07 GMT
All you have to do Bob (as in any negotiations) everybody must confirm that they will abide by two rules:
1. everyone will 'Agree to disagree agreeably!'
and
2. If you reach a stalemate situation you will all agree to seek outside help or information to break the deadlock in a mutually agreeable way.
if you think it through - if intelligent people adhere to the above there can be no disagreeable events.
good luck Bob - Proud of yer!
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