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Post by thecad on Mar 11, 2013 23:35:37 GMT
Hi all would you please advise..? A friend of mine's son as been training at a karate club now for approx 7 years(he's 13) In November 2012 his instructor informed hi dad that he was ready to take his dan grade, all was arranged and £105 fee was paid.. Now here's the problem. The association rules state that all club instructors can only grade up to and including 1st kyu !! So as the instructor chose to both lie and ignor this rule, would this make his black belt grade, fake for want of a better word ?? What's your thoughts guys  |
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Post by malk103 on Mar 12, 2013 7:33:10 GMT
The first problem is the £105!!!
They are instructors, not emergency plumbers at 3am in the morning...
The Dan grade normally takes more time and should involve a few senior grades but most of those will probably be doing it for nothing to help out and ensure he has a good grading.
The grading instructor should be a 3rd Dan and be recognised as a grading instructor by the org, a lot of this depends on the organisation as they all have different rules.
The most important thing is if he is ready to take his Dan grade, my boy also passed at 13 but he damned well knew that he'd earnt it.
With all of the different orgs then some grade requirements will be different and I dare say some standards will differ.
Is there not someone else within the association near enough to grade him? Is there other clubs nearby?
The danger here is you don't know how good any other clubs are and they may want him to train with them for ages to reach their standards, if you let us know roughly where he is then maybe someone here can recommend someone.
In addition to looking into other clubs then I would also recommend taking him elsewhere to have an assessment, this may be a bit cheeky but you never know what standard you are training at until you see others at your same level training.
As for a fake Shodan grade, you would want him to hold his head up high and show his grading book and certificate to anybody and say that he's earnt it, anyone can print you off a cert but it ideally needs a valid signature on it from a grading officer/instructor and be registered with an org/assoc. In my opinion there are too many belts handed out by one man bands.
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Post by Rob S on Mar 12, 2013 7:59:22 GMT
£100 for a shodan grading is cheap (if considering the organisation is Japanese based, and the Yen/Sterling exchange rate). I will quote three associations I know of or have been involved with recently: A charges 100 Euro to take the test, and 100 Euro if you pass for certification (the certificate money is refunded if you do not pass!) B charges 100 Dollars to take the test and 150 Dollars if you pass (the certificate money is refunded if you do not pass!) C charges 100 Dollars to test.Pass or fail. Take your chances A.B,C are all Japanese associations. A and B return the certificate money if you fail. SO in essence all are charging about 100 Dollars to test for Shodan. In the case of A dan B the official rules say that 3 examiners; all examiner licensed and one of whom must be at least a C class examiner. In the case of C, there must be three licensed examiners (there is no D, C, B, A) recognised by the Japan HQ. Examiners cannot be licensed until 3 Dan for Kyu gradings and 4 Dan for Dan gradings. The panel will comprise of 3 or more, and a grading supervisor will oversee the whole grading. Out of curiosity I checked what one British organisation (AMA) is doing. They say there must be three examiners, and the senior must be 3 grades higher than the candidate (i.e. two grades above the intended grade). See; www.amauk.co.uk/attachments/309_AMA-Dan-Grade-Procedure-010111.pdfDan grades are of course relevant within that organisation - a benchmark! Looking on the internet most groups say that persons transferring to their organisation must ratify or even re-sit their dan grade test under the new association's rules/guidelines within 12 months! It is clear that a Dan grade in association X,Y,Z is not necessarily recognised by any other association - Japanese or not! The KUGB policy on grade recognition is clear: www.kugb.org/kugb-grading-syllabus.phpBack to the Q - The boy takes his chances whoever he grades with! |
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Post by thecad on Mar 12, 2013 10:54:25 GMT
Hi guys, thank you for the replies, but I think I need to be a little clearer!!
The association grading rules state. Any club instructor can only grade a student up to and including 1st Kyu, at which stage they must go infront of the chief instructor to take their dan grade, Now the said club instructor stated that he's permitted to grade upto 3rd dan, which I clearly untrue, and the said instructor as taken the £105 graded the student and awarded the black belt!!
The chief Insructor as of yet does not know , as we've only just been made aware of he ruling.
Regards
Mark
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Post by kensei on Mar 12, 2013 11:36:37 GMT
Mark, You have a really tough decision to make here. You can ask for the money back, play coy and kind of get out of dodge or go get him graded and lie to the instructor...or you can confront the instructor and let him know you were told about the ruling. Both choices are not great for your kids longevity in the club. It boils down to confirming it with the instructor, hell he may not be aware of the situation as well...its possible! My suggestion is to take the high road, ask the guy about this and bring a copy of the ruling with you or get a letter from the org. It may just be a misunderstanding but if he is just ripping you off and not delivering then its a whole other story. The reason people pay big for a testing is because of the tester...the guy with teh name on the paper. If I were given a choice to grade for Shodan and had either "john c public" or "TANAKA JKA" on my paper I am pretty sure I would fork out the extra for Tanaka!...granted that would mean I was going back down to Shodan  Point being is that you need to chat with the instructor, if he is ripping you all off then what else is he doing that is not above board? |
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Post by malk103 on Mar 12, 2013 13:36:31 GMT
It wouldn't bother me who signed mine, just so long as they were entitled to do so. I know that I became a Black Belt at that time and was of the correct standard so not fussed on fancy certs or belts with flashy Kanji on.
The general rule of thumb is for a minimum of 3rd Dan to be able to grade a 1st Kyu up to Shodan, you would need to check this is the case and that the paperwork is correct, or speak to the cheif instructor.
Using the examples from earlier, I graded under the AMA rules and am welcome to train at other orgs - although it sounds like the KUGB would need me to take my Shodan again or prove that i'm worthy of it if I was to ever want to join them.
The most important thing here is if the lad was up to standard, it may be the case that the said instructor has just made £105. I know of a certain org nearby that grades people early so they can fill instructor positions to keep the club going.
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Post by garage on Mar 12, 2013 14:49:34 GMT
Hi Mark may I suggest you say nothing and let the kid enjoy getting the his blackbelt.
The is no standard in the UK anyway. After a political split you become a whitebelt in club A and and blackbelt in B. Suddenly an instructors teaching is worthless but the week before it was fine.
Set up an organisation and you are entitled to sign. None of the Japanese instructors operating in the UK ever had to take a standardisation test to instruct in the UK.
As a rule of thumb in the KUGB you can be a grading instructor next year and of course next year never comes. As this would effect the revenue stream. So there are more splinter organisations as a result of this.
I thought it would be a good idea to get my kids blackbelts. They had to start from the beginning after 8 years and it came to £12000. So the money has gone to there education that produces a certificate that enable them to get employment. Where as a blackbelt is only useful where you got it from.
Having said that my Toykio Certificate whilst inconsistent in the UK worked in the US and NZ without even being asked to produce it.
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Post by Bob Davis on Mar 12, 2013 15:34:33 GMT
Hi Mark, A couple of questions to start with as we only have a very small part of the story so far (I don’t want to give the impression I’m doubting you word BTW I’m just trying to fill out the picture). You don’t say which group your friends son is with, (and whilst I can understand this might be a sensitive issue), would it be impolite to ask? I only say this as I know a number of situations where the published “rules” are subject to long term local tacit “arrangements” between a chief instructor and his senior black belts. You say the instructor says he is “permitted to grade up to 3rd Dan” which, by general convention places him as a 5th Dan presumably, is that correct? You say the Chief Instructor doesn’t know yet as you’ve only just found out the rule yourself (although you don’t say how), are you sure of this or is this just an assumption? Does your friend's son have a certificate? If so is it the normal association certificate and whos name is in the signature section? Does your friend's son (and your friend presumably) feel that he’s of the required standard for Shodan and earned his grade? Without the answers to the above my comments would be as follows: Although there may be some exceptions, £100(ish) is not an uncommon sort of figure for a Black Belt grading in the UK in my experience so I wouldn’t look at the number in isolation. (A guy who trains with me as a guest occasionally has just paid £150 to his own group for his Nidan grading). On the subject of whether your friends sons black belt is a “fake” or not will always be subjective as, unpopular as it is to say it out loud (although when has that ever stopped me ) all our black belts are someone else’s “fake”, any grade is only relevant within the specific group you are in and have limited (if any) validity elsewhere. Some groups will expect you to retake your grade with them, some will expect you to start again from white belt, I think ours is one of the few who’ll accept you at your grade from elsewhere (you just don’t get to take your next grade with us until you are at our standard for that grade). So it’s all fairly meaningless in the wider world. So the upshot of all this is to why has it suddenly become of concern? Is your friend's son planning on moving away from the dojo where he’s trained for the last 7 years and moving to a different group (or is he unhappy in any way with the training he’s had?). If not then he’s in the same boat as the rest of us, training with a group of his peers at the generally agreed standard within that group. Is there a feeling that “when the chief instructor finds out” he’ll be stripped of his grade. If so then there are far bigger problems ahead for everybody in the dojo where he currently trains. Would not the simplest thing at this point be for your friend just to approach their dojo instructor in a polite way and ask for clarification. Now obviously this may not satisfy for your friend as you’ve already indicated that you believe the instructor in question to be a “liar” and a rip off merchant (is this based on anything other than this one incident BTW? As the boy has been with him for 7 years). In that case your friend just needs to write a polite letter to the association asking for the same clarification of the rule. I'd only start to shout about it if he/she is still not satisfied after you've been through those stages but as James has already said, your friends son may have to be prepared to move on in that case. Best regards Bob D. |
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Post by garage on Mar 13, 2013 3:03:19 GMT
The AMA clubs have an inconsistant standard as well.
For example one club the instructor is a professional which I find a bit strange in an amateur organisation. There is virtually no sparring even in the grading.
During gradings the katas are performed as a group not as an individual.
Lack of flexibility as it seems more important not to put anyone off as it hurts to stretch.
The kanji on blackbelts are really good and cost a fortune.
I feel they have been robbed as, as self defence it is not practical.
Whilst I am sure that are other clubs in the ama that are different this just shows there are different standards within the organisation. There is the politics as they have recently sacked one of the main officiers of the organisation as google will tell you.
France seems to be one of the few countries that has national standards for martial arts. This is only what google tells me.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2013 9:35:17 GMT
Money, politics, power and standards are what drags karate and other martial arts down. Some karateka's just have to accept what is on offer and are not in a position to challenge and change. I would advise anyone to walk from their club if not satisfied with what's on offer. Plenty of clubs available especially if prepared to travel. To any instructor not happy with parent association IWould advise setting up your own club and improve on what you want to leave behind or search around for an association that better meets your ideals. AMA and nakmas are fine if they work for you but plenty of others out there.
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Post by elmar on Mar 13, 2013 13:28:35 GMT
If I might beat an older drum here - that is one of the reasons ISOK was founded - to stop the silliness of increasing grading and "registration" fees. In ISOK, the first grade is always $50, and all subsequent promotions are $25; annual membership is also only $25. It costs no more to print a 5 on a certificate than to print a 1, why should the test cost more? What makes this work is that the other costs have to be dealt with explicitly - travel, housing and food - to get the examiner(s) and the candidate(s) together, exactly the same as any summer camp or training seminar. A godan test takes very little longer than a shodan test, and the examiner does exactly the same thing - sits on his butt and watches, and then makes a subjective judgement. Why the cost?
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Post by Rob S on Mar 13, 2013 14:33:31 GMT
Elmar,
Knowing your background there is a very strong traditional core within your karate, and you have built a good reputation. As has Richard Amos, and others similar. YOur names will carry a fair amount of weight on the bottom of a diploma, regardless of the number of the dan grade it relates to.
But,
there are many many out there who desire the name on the bottom to be in Kanji or Romaji - relating to names that have already been mentioned (i.e. Tanaka Masahiko Sensei).
Looking at my diplomas I have names/signatures that many recognise instantly, i.e. Nakayama Masatoshi, Nishiyama Hidetaka, Abe Keigo, Asai Tetsuhiko, Yahara Mikio etc. These names carry weight - often for perhaps personal semantics/sentimentality.
My own students carry this same weird mentality - they want that Romaji or Kanji name on the bottom, and the kanji written on the body of the certificate - as opposed to a standard border and English writing that says so and so club recognises so and so to hold the grade of .....
They, due to my influence, are of the belief that a grade is invalid if it is not recognised internationally. And this is where the problem lays!
Why? Because many of these same certificates are not even recognised inter-association in Japan. I.e. the diploma signed by sensei A is not necessarily accepted by sensei B. Or, if accepted, you have to purchase the equivalent certificate from sensei B! Because we want that signature, and what we perceive as acceptance/legitimacy we pay those big bucks!
I can honestly say that in Japanese certificate fees alone since 1973 - I have paid at least 8,000 USA. When these get presented to a particular Japanese federation they are not all accepted! So I pay another 300 to get one of the lower grades accepted. That is the reality of grades in this world.
As mentioned above, by others, that money could actually have been better spent attaining professional qualifications that were valid in the workplace!
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Post by jimlukelkc on Mar 13, 2013 16:01:25 GMT
Anyone can judge me by my technique, by my teaching or by my students. I wont be judged by a signature or lack of it. I am considering moving associations soon. I am willing to give the new association my training history and grades attained but if they insist on a re-grade or demotion I will walk. I have served my time and am too long in the tooth to start that nonsense.
I grade my own students but I like to get a guest instructor in for dan gradings. I think it adds an extra element for the student and I cannot then be accused of nepotism.
We get hung up on this and the truth is that the best gauge of a black belt is how he trains. Not how he performs on one particular day.
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Post by dhodge on Mar 13, 2013 16:54:30 GMT
When my club moved from the SKIGB/SKIEF to the JKS Scotland group all of our ranks from Dan-Kyu were recognised. No one was asked to re-sit any grading or test. As for cost ours is less than half of what it cost with the SKIGB/SKIEF this includes the course with an International instructor. I am new to karate but in the past four years some of what I have seen is great and some down right off putting, this is with authentic Japanese orgs clubs and european ones.
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Post by kensei on Mar 13, 2013 17:16:05 GMT
My thoughts on ranking are a bit mixed. While I only want to rank under those I respect, I refuse to worry about my rank. If you want me to train with you then my rank should not be relevent, but rather what I bring to the table.
As a student I work hard and as a instructor I bring nearly 25 years of teaching to the table in Karate and a vast back ground in other styles.
So, if you want to bicker about Yondan, Godan, Sandan, Shodan...thats yoru problem. I hold my rank I tested for and wont accept advancement from those that dont know me...been offered a Godan to leave my current club and teach for a different organization and turned them down flat. I was also told by a different group that I could leave my current organization, whom I am happy with, and join but I would have to regrade or take a Shodan...for which I would get a certificate to prove my rank...that I dropped to after leaveing my old organization...Really?
Ranking is silly, I wear a black belt and have for 25 years now, I have been training for nearly 34 years and dont care much about grading past Shodan to start with...I value the information and training you offer not the rank you can assign me!
Rank past "black belt" is fairly irrelevent as I know some Godans that are completely lost when it comes to their style and I also know some Shodans that know more about Karate than the Godans!
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Post by Rob S on Mar 13, 2013 18:24:52 GMT
Rank past "black belt" is fairly irrelevent as I know some Godans that are completely lost when it comes to their style and I also know some Shodans that know more about Karate than the Godans! This is so very true. |
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Post by malk103 on Mar 13, 2013 22:32:11 GMT
My main aim is to pass Nidan next year and then go for Sandan when i'm ready and time done.
I think you can never end learning things in Karate but once you reach a certain level then I suspect Dan grades are not based on your technical skills but a much wider knowledge.
I fully intend to only wear a black belt and not cover it in stars or Kanji to show how important my rank is... and nobody is ever expected to call me Master! ;D
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Post by Rob S on Mar 13, 2013 22:53:12 GMT
... cover it in stars or Kanji to show how important my rank is... and nobody is ever expected to call me Master! ;D ... stars! better than the bars I so often see! Hey we could have 1, 2,3,4 and even 5 star black belts! There has to be a marketing concept in there somewhere! I am being facetious of course ... but this is what the public seem to be impressed by. When I was very young (I still am!), I was at a tournament and this man walked in ... he had 10 stripes on his belt. 10 red stripes ... the N. Americans will know who I mean ... but he also went by the name of Grandmaster O ... (full name withheld). Very impressive to say the least. The public lapped it up! Then some of the black belts he brought also demonstrated. I can't really say what I thought (I would get sued) ... but let us just say that most of the fighters in the event would have made short work of the multi striped demonstrators. I went to another event and a big man walked in, cape, hat, red and black belt, and an entourage befitting Michael Jackson! Another demonstration that left me feeling every black belt in there would have won! But in every case, the audience loved it! At other events we also watched Eizo Shimabuku, Teruo Hayashi, Teruo Chinen, Minobu Miki and others demonstrating. I was wide awake. But the audience seemed less impressed than in the other tournaments I referred to! The audience - not the karate-ka - 'joe blow public' I mean! The ones who were impressed with bells and whistles! What impresses seems to be stars and bells and whistles! What doesn't always impressed is good solid honest Budo ... but this is what we should seek and demonstrates in our karate embu ... Shin (真) - Truth, Zen (善) - Goodness, and Bi (美) - Beauty. All three together .. all three evident in every technique we make. |
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Post by nathanso on Mar 14, 2013 7:14:05 GMT
... cover it in stars or Kanji to show how important my rank is... and nobody is ever expected to call me Master! ;D ... stars! better than the bars I so often see! Hey we could have 1, 2,3,4 and even 5 star black belts! There has to be a marketing concept in there somewhere! Many years ago, when my instructor was getting married, we held a "sensei roast" in honor of the soon-to-be newlyweds. One of the roasters said that he was worried that our instructor would try to boss his wife around by pulling the sensei card, so to be sure that she would outrank him, she got a black belt with 4 red stars and the title, "General Sensei." |
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Post by elmar on Mar 14, 2013 11:34:24 GMT
... a good reputation. As has Richard Amos, and others similar. YOur names will carry a fair amount of weight on the bottom of a diploma, regardless of the number of the dan grade it relates to. All a diploma says is "In the opinion of the undersigned, you are entitled to line up with others that I/we have graded to x-dan." No more. It does not carry any thought or proof of competence or anything else. And the tests do not have any objective metric, e.g. PSI produced per punch. No wonder it is not accepted outside of the local old boys network. Only to the cognoscenti. And those pieces of paper are worthless outside of the dojo where they are recognized. Point made. When it comes to people arriving at my dojo, all I really want to know is 1) how long have you been training, 2) who was your instructor, and 3) who was your instructor's instructor. This information lets me know how to initially present my material to you. What color you wear around your waist is up to your own sense of ridiculousness. If you want to grade with me, we can talk about that after a bit of time as well; if you don't, then welcome and just train. But, I do not put food on the table with grading fees, etc. |
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Post by kensei on Mar 14, 2013 13:45:39 GMT
Some people LIVE for that peice of paper and fancy belt.....it kind of reminds me of the "KI" master vs the MMA fighter thatyou see on utube. The guy believed his hype so much that reality had to smack him in the mouth....letterally...to get him to realize that being a 10th Degree KI MASTER was not much use if your skills were not their!
Sad really.
What is sadder is worshiping someone elses piece of paper...like saying "My instructor is a seventh Dan and he earned it"....Yah, but can he teach worth a damn or make you better? And how is his skill level now that he is at the top..is he training still or is he just a teacher?
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Mar 14, 2013 14:56:14 GMT
I have been fortunate to have trained with many karateka both in the UK and abroad and from a personal perspective I have never ever had to "prove" with a piece of paper or a verbal rendition as to who I am or where I am from or who I have trained with simply because the people I have had the pleasure of training with have simply allowed me to join in the line up and train. I have also been asked to take classes both in the UK and abroad. In turn when I have felt comfortable I open up and inform of my experiences. Actions speak louder than the written word.
I can understand if we change associations/organisations etc the requirements of a "paper trail" but if you go to the trouble of visiting a prospective new club and train with them often enough what you bring in terms of ability/knowledge etc is evident and has always stood me in good stead.
Best Regards
Allan
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Post by Rob S on Mar 14, 2013 18:43:29 GMT
I have been fortunate to have trained with many karateka both in the UK and abroad and from a personal perspective I have never ever had to "prove" with a piece of paper or a verbal rendition as to who I am or where I am from I can understand if we change associations/organisations etc the requirements of a "paper trail" but if you go to the trouble of visiting a prospective new club and train with them often enough what you bring in terms of ability/knowledge etc is evident and has always stood me in good stead. I am singing from the same song sheet guys. My point is that all the fancy bauble certificates with all the writing, and the names that so many in Shotokan 'adore' do not make the grade of the person any more recognised. Perhaps even than the grade of the young lad subject to the start of this post, or those who belong to the forum from the associations people have never even heard of. Yes, personally I am proud of the names in my book and on my certificates, as I am in my other chosen martial art! I do not suggest it makes me any better. The fact I have taken 'demotions' (if we want to call it that) twice in my 4 +decades karate career, hopefully shows I am not actually all that 'grade hungry'. Actions speak louder than the written word. That, Allan is the crux of the matter. Wear the gi, walk the walk, talk the talk, live the Budo! That is why I have the belief we must show: Shin (真) - Truth Zen (善) - Goodness, and Bi (美) - Beauty. |
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Post by garage on Mar 15, 2013 10:08:37 GMT
I have 3 belts in my bag. I normally wear a white belt. I tell them that I have trained before and that I have had a blackbelt in the past. I find they get upset if you do not say anything.
I find you get oh yea. I happy to pay for training but I waste all my money on food and staying alive. I find as a white belt you get no respect and they get annoyed when they can't get near you.
I have e-mailed club say may I train with you for a fee etc I mention I have trained before and I get health and safety can't train with them visiting the area 2 times a year.
I have never charged for training despite being constantly being charged by everyone else.
I think the low point was turning up to a 10th Dan paying to be taught karate and gettting a couple of days of his version of tai chi.
The only way to avoid the boring politics and revenue stream is to get on train and consentrate on the comedy. I train to make you laugh.
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Mar 15, 2013 10:48:28 GMT
Hi Bert
Bit confused by your posting so I googled "Bert Smith Karateka" which has made me more.......confused!!
I also have 3 black belts (1) my very first (2) one that was handed down to me from a very great friend who sadly died and he wanted me to "absorb" his spirit when wearing it and (3) a new one bought several years ago because the second one is now falling apart with wear.
Do you still train and who with?
Best Regards
Allan
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Post by garage on Mar 15, 2013 13:30:18 GMT
Hi Allan
I blackbelt 1 white belt and 1 red belt I like the colour.
I train about 2 hours each day before work. There are various people from various styles that are kind enough to visit. I moved around a lot so stopped paying to registar anymore.
I have posted on martialartlinks.com but apart from that I do not exist on the internet as I just get on and train in my garage suprisingly enough. I expect I am crap but since there is no one to tell me, apart from the visitors, I can delude myself.
I have spent time with the usual shotokan instructors but their greatness never rubbed off.
I instructed in a number of clubs for years but work came first and when I moved again I just concentrated on training myself probably quite selfishly.
I have a couple kids at university so £9000 a year plus living means there is nothing left to go anywhere, hence the £12000 for blackbelt went to their education. So despite training for years they have no belts. I would have liked them to have had but sadly had to make a choice.
So since I do not pay a licence fee that makes me not a blackbelt so I guess I shouldn't really post here.
Everyday I train I wonder what I am doing and why.
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Mar 15, 2013 14:20:46 GMT
Hi Bert
Understand now, as long as you enjoy what and how you train is a personal journey.
We have had a number of our 5 children follow an academic career but we have been fortunate that they have funded themselves but have always been there in the background to support them if needed.
If you have graded Black Belt you are a Black Belt, do not let anyone tell you otherwise. What you decide to do with it after the event is your business.
You contribute to the site so you are entitled like anyone else to post......post on.
Best Regards
Allan
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Post by elmar on Mar 15, 2013 19:19:13 GMT
That is why I have the belief we must show: Shin (真) - Truth Zen (善) - Goodness, and Bi (美) - Beauty. Do you practice Kyudo as well? For this saying is one of the touchstones that is often quoted in that art. |
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Post by Rob S on Mar 15, 2013 19:58:38 GMT
Well spotted Elmar,
But no, I actually also practise Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iaido!
I stole the Shin, Zen, Bi 'touchstones' from the Kyudo fraternity, as many Iaidoka also relate to this.
The point is, when it comes to Kata, I believe this trinity to be an essential part of Budo.
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Mar 15, 2013 22:32:19 GMT
Hi Rob
Had the pleasure during August 2006 to experience both Laido and Aikido at one of Terry Wingrove's Budo seminars in Wigan. Alan Tattersall (also a Jujitsu Master) taught the Laido and Alan Ruddock taught the Aikido, two great characters. I understand Alan Ruddock passed away recently.
Few years ago whilst on holiday on Majorca I trained with a Kyokushinkai group in Pollensa Town who put me in touch with a dojo in Palma that taught Shotokan, Laido, Kendo etc. Unfortunately due to change of plans I was unable to visit but it shows you that there are some great experiences open to Martial Arts practitioners if they bother to research.
Best Regards
Allan
Best Regards
Allan
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