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Post by dhodge on Apr 19, 2013 16:10:14 GMT
Ok for debating purposes, somone throws a hooking punch at you out of the two block what would you naturally use?
I know the some will may not agree with my thoughts but I think AGE-UKE is more natural & the most affective for this punch if the arm is into an almost side blocking movement.
Lets hear your thoughts?
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Apr 19, 2013 17:14:30 GMT
Hi Derek
Presumably the attack is jodan since you prefer age uke! Personally I would use nagashi uke with say tai sabaki.
The attack you describe is a hooking punch so neither of your examples would fit the bill so to speak. They are primarily for a direct linear as opposed to a round the houses type of attack.
Best Regards Allan
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Post by dhodge on Apr 19, 2013 17:31:54 GMT
Allan that is why I said in a side blocking motion instead of moving up to a slight tilt in the arm above the head but the same motion finishing in a more straight forearm.
It may have another name in this form so I would ask that we expand the debate to where ever it goes
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Post by Bob Davis on Apr 19, 2013 17:44:23 GMT
Personally I wouldn't use either (probably) but given the choice of two (and for the purposes of the debate) Age-uke would work ok IF you think about the initial "pushing" arm as the actual block/parry and the "rising block" arm as the counter, it sort of works with your natural instincts, which is always preferable.
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Post by malk103 on Apr 19, 2013 21:55:38 GMT
As Bob said, most of the "blocks" have the other Hikite hand doing the initial block and the "blocking" arm doing more of a response. I think I would probably get hit on the head as most punches are too fast to counter unless you can see the signs or they are drunk or slow. But if I thought I was about to get hit on the head then I would make some distance (in miles not feet).
For arguements sake if I saw a slow hooking classic punch coming my way I would more dodge and do something similar to the first move of Heian Nidan where the highest arm was protecting my head while the vertical arm was aiming towards their chin. So closer to Age Uke. If there was just one person punching then a swift punch/kick response and leg-it! If only one then a throat attack/grab with leg sweep, with off balancing them all the way to the floor.
I think Uchi is better as a pushing aside, grabbing an arm move before responding with something else. Out of all of these theories then getting outside of their attacking range should be the main aim, either backwards or to the sides. Or not being there...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2013 10:50:55 GMT
As a short guy I would go for a age uke type of move followed by a gyaku zuki to the throat if in an extreme self defence context. However, in a sporting context gyaku to chudan level. But how about, Shuto uke to the inside in back stance as per ending of Heian shodan and Iain Abernethy bunkai jutsu?
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Post by garage on Apr 21, 2013 11:05:35 GMT
If you perform Age Uke by putting the arm across the body and lifting you are only blocking with the shoulder and you will only block people who are lighter than your shoulder muscles as you are at right anges to the attack.
If you perfom age uke as a punch to the temple you have an angle and a drop of water would run down your arm across your back to the supporting leg so you are blocking with your whole body.
As the hook comes in turn the back leg away from the punch and get to the end of it's arc aim your blocking age uke into the temple. This makes it easier to pretend self defence rather than a block and a counter which isn't self defence.
A high level uch uke blocks your vision. To test this, go to a wado club and throw a technique at their head, keep the angle so their arm is in front of their eyes and they can't see you, they are supprised they can't see you coming.
In reality a hooking punch is probably off a boxer who normally does a flurry of techniques about a dozen normally and you may block the first one but you are not going to stop the other 11 left right lefts. Kick them before they get close enough to punch you because, they are a lot better at punching then you are. When you do hit them that face doesnt look bothered as they are used to being hit.
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Post by dhodge on Apr 21, 2013 15:40:18 GMT
six replies in this topic not bad considering the usage of the forum of late I hope to read more over the next few days
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Post by D.Ram on Apr 22, 2013 5:25:32 GMT
In SKI, we have a few standard "Kihon Ippon Kumite" steps. By hooking punch, i assume you're referring to a round-house punch aimed at the head - much like a mawashi geri in terms of direction? In such case, the first alternative in SKI would be to step 90 degrees to the side with the back foot, so that you're in zenkutsu, and block with a uchi ude uke. The second option would be to block with two open hands while turning almost 270 degrees, and then countering with an empi uchi. Bit difficult to explain in words, please watch Kanazawa Sensei's video on the topic here: www.youtube.com/watch?v=zugT2902CEs
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Post by jimlukelkc on Apr 22, 2013 6:35:27 GMT
Personally I would opt for more of a flinch reaction driving forward, so combining defence with attack. We are confusing basic technique to train hikite and hip use with a viable self defence technique. If , as stated above, you were using the hikite hand to get in and establish control and the age-uke to smash your opponent that would be a different matter. If the initial response does not gain control and either unbalance or limit the attack then you will be hit with a flurry of punches. Either way, moving in gives you the best chance.
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Post by tomobrien on Apr 24, 2013 2:40:02 GMT
I love Kanazawa! Hard to emulate though!
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Post by th0mas on Apr 25, 2013 8:15:57 GMT
Jim has it for me... I would not be worrying about a single punch but a flurry of blows..
The aim is to gain control and then dominate... so using Age-uke or uchi-uke as a flinch controlling action either to get inside of the initial attack or to enable you to maneuver to the outside of their direction of attack.
The common misconception is that the final motion of those two uke is a block, with the other arm being mainly redundant. However the range is all wrong for a real fight.
The"primary block" and the crossing arm action in both these techniques is what sets up the control and gives you the options to follow on with your own assault. The "secondary block" is a range of things, a strike (as others have described above), including the opening to a grab and control of your opponents lead arm. An example of an effective yet simple approach to this is the transition between the three Age-uke techniques in Heian Shodan. The First Age-Uke is a flinch, control and drive forward followed by a finishing strike to the jaw (three in the kata to practice the transition on both left and right sides)
Tactically, in my opinion, it is about managing the shock of a fully emotionally changed assault and that can only happen if you disrupt your opponent by forcing control.
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Post by th0mas on Apr 25, 2013 8:20:29 GMT
...as usual I have just repeated Jim's post, but slightly less succinctly and slightly less well. :-)
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Post by jimlukelkc on Apr 25, 2013 9:31:16 GMT
You flatter me sir. Actually we were just working on this earlier in the week as a response to swinging punch and to a lapel grab. it works great as a technique to unbalance your opponent or apply golgi tendon reflex or using the hikite hand to strike the ulnar nerve prior to slamming the age-uke into an already forward-moving jaw. There are lots of great applications of this move which would suggest this is why it appears in kata so often.
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Post by th0mas on Apr 25, 2013 11:14:16 GMT
too true.. not to mention the fact that the raised forearm smash provides good disruptive cover for the most likely action of your opponent, which is the swinging left..
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2013 16:06:25 GMT
Ok for debating purposes, somone throws a hooking punch at you out of the two block what would you naturally use? I know the some will may not agree with my thoughts but I think AGE-UKE is more natural & the most affective for this punch if the arm is into an almost side blocking movement. Lets hear your thoughts? Unless you are Neo form The Matrix and can enter Bullet Time, you are never going to be able to have time to read an attack, identify it and block it. Do boxers "block"? No, they train to react and move heir head out of the way, or cover up, as that is all there is time for (people on the street don't attack you from six feet away like they do in the Dojo). There are no blocks in Karate. Age Uke is a forearm strike (smash) to the neck, (amongst other things). Uchi Uke is for getting someone arm out of the way then claiming the wrist so you can pull them onto your punch (this is why your "free" hand always comes back to your hip instead of covering your face like a boxer does with his "free" hand). Whoever is teaching you these are blocks has obviously only ever trained in the Childrens version of karate that was introduced into the Okinawan and Japanese school system as an form of aerobic exercise to ensure children were physically fit enough to enter straight into military service. (Unfortunately this is this version of Karate, rather than the combat art, that has become popular and spread around the world, hence why we have students going up and down training halls punching and kicking fresh air for hours at a time and why we have people training just the Kata rather than the individual throws, joint locks and groundwork that the Kata are there to record).
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Post by dhodge on Apr 25, 2013 20:53:58 GMT
Paul in my line of work (20 yrs doing the doors 17yrs in the HMP) trust me I have been in a lot of violent incidents. No one has taught me this block in a class but I know that the block works it is an initial instinct block followed by a reply to the aggressors actions. I do not buy their is no blocks in Karate and as an ex boxer of 20 years yes I blocked by covering up as much as I punched. I posted this to get people talking debating and some movement in the forum and it has worked.
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Post by D.Ram on Apr 26, 2013 4:12:15 GMT
There are no blocks in Karate. Age Uke is a forearm strike (smash) to the neck, (amongst other things). Uchi Uke is for getting someone arm out of the way then claiming the wrist so you can pull them onto your punch... "No Blocks in Karate" I wonder how many countless past Masters will be turning in their graves! Any decent book on Karate devotes an entire fat section to blocks in Shotokan I can think of Nishiyama and Nakayama as fine examples...these books should have been much thinner, going by your theory!
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Post by elmar on Apr 26, 2013 11:39:35 GMT
"No Blocks in Karate" Depends what you mean by block, I think. If you mean something that is used purely defensively that has no effect on the attacker's balance or ability to follow-up, similar to the cover-up in boxing, then I don't think that there are many movements that are purely so, with the possible exception of the advance in the kata wankan. Each "blocking" movement I have looked at in kata appears to be either a limb destruction, a throw or a locking technique based on a grip.
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Post by jimlukelkc on Apr 26, 2013 14:17:08 GMT
Paul and Derek in my opinion you are both right...and both wrong! We have to look at context here. If we are looking at an agreed sparring match at kumite distance then yes, blocks work. However in the context of a back street assault where the distance is very close quarter then no blocks do not work in the same way. Then the hikite hand would be the check and control with the' blocking' hand becoming a strike. The same can be said of adopting a guard position. Fine for kumite but unnecessary and virtually useless for self-defence. I would have agreed with the statement' there are no blocks in karate' if it had been ammended to 'there are no blocks in kata'.
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Post by dhodge on Apr 26, 2013 15:10:24 GMT
Jim I would agree to a point with Paul and you to be honest I am of the opinion that Karate only works if the practitioner can control their reactions and make the counter or attack natural and not forced. In our dojo we train every block is also a strike, every movement is a preparation for another and that their is a big difference between the control for kumite contests and car park karate where you need to defend yourself. I am really enjoying reading the thoughts of everyone in this topic no rights or wrongs just peoples personal Karate.
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Post by malk103 on Apr 26, 2013 22:41:18 GMT
You also have the difference in skills and experience, you would be getting white belts to train as blocks, a couple of grades later you would be ensuring they used the Hikite hand properly and may introduce the pulling arm at some point, this is the transition of Blocks to strikes. For more senior grades the initial move is then the block and the second part is then the response.
Later on you may be expanding on the blocks to the more senior grades or Shodan, this then turns Soto uke into the multiple block/strike routine.
The other transition is from doing this in thin air and drilling all of the aspects of blocks with a partner and then a non willing partner
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Post by nathanso on Apr 27, 2013 1:38:25 GMT
To get back to the original question, I think that the most natural response to a hook punch to the head is an inside- to outside forearm block. (I'm avoiding using Japanese in light of the uchi vs soto thread. .) That said, whether you are standing more or less upright in something like a SD situation, or in a kamae position in a dojo sparring situation, I don't see why you would have a "wind-up" first. Also, ideally, you would use the non-blocking hand to simultaneously attack. Blocking and then attacking, even if in the context of the "block" being the classical windup and the "attack" being the classical block is a second choice IMO.
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Apr 27, 2013 8:16:05 GMT
Like I said Nagashi Uke with Tai Sabaki... then using the blocking hand/arm as the attacking hand/arm as per Hente. Nagashi Uke is a very much under used technique since it can be used for either Jodan, Chudan or Gedan with the Hente attack to any of the three levels.
Best Regards Allan
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Post by dhodge on Apr 27, 2013 19:25:37 GMT
Twenty four replies all different but similar not bad i will try to think of another question tomorrow to try and get us all posting
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Post by th0mas on Apr 28, 2013 6:13:35 GMT
..Are you keeping score?
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Post by dhodge on Apr 28, 2013 7:44:11 GMT
No Tom but I am wanting to learn more so if threads are busy I learn more. The forum has been really quiet for a while and if I/you/others post something that gets people discussing surely it is better than no posts.
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Post by garage on Apr 29, 2013 11:10:50 GMT
If someone throws something at your head before you learn Karate your arm will go up to get in the way between it and your head without thinking.
So does karate do enough training to drill out this reaction or would you really want to? Modifying it a bit is more likely.
I find there are 3 stages 1 can't see it coming. 2 can see it coming but can't do anything about it 3 can see it coming and do something about it.
As a practicing coward I find in a situation, that I get an adrenaline dump and everything goes slow a bit like in the matrix. I feel I should get style points for not filling my pants. I find I am unable to vebalise what I am doing as it is too slow, (the observer in nunjitsu goes away ) but if I look and do, the repetitions and drilling works and allows me to move in what seems slow motion it seems like forever but has only lasted seconds.
Perhaps being a karate novice is a good place, before you lose everthing you come with naturally. Perhaps what I do isn't karate but, I am glad I am still here to type as a result of my non karate. (I blocked and didn't lose my head)
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Post by Bob Davis on Apr 29, 2013 13:36:47 GMT
This is very much along the lines of a question I was asked many years ago "At what stage of your training did you think you'd be able to defend yourself" to which my answer was "before I started and getting back to that stage sometime after brown belt" (although looking back that might have been slightly optimistic as I was still bogged down in "technique")
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Post by th0mas on Apr 29, 2013 15:28:10 GMT
No Tom but I am wanting to learn more so if threads are busy I learn more. The forum has been really quiet for a while and if I/you/others post something that gets people discussing surely it is better than no posts. Hi Derek Yes absolutely, more posts is a good thing. I like a good debate me.
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