Karate for self defence

[dhodge]

I have been thinking about Karate as a training tool for self defence and if its effective. My perceptions are as follows.
1. Karate teaches movement so you should if you train correctly will be able to use the natural body reaction and utilise some part of this training to get out of the way.
2. Karate teaches you to make a fist and be able to use it (if bag and pad work is part of training). This means you can hit back even if not great its better than nothing.
3. Karate teaches kicking and if used to the bodies shape form and ability is effective in keeping people at distance (not kicking high but low and to knee groin ect)
4. Karate teaches a way of moving and countering reacting to an attack and not thinking just reacting (if real attack sparring is part of the training, by this I mean hooking punches lunging swinging ect and not karate techniques as an attack)
4. Karate is training and in my experiences some training is better than none.


Your thoughts are more than welcome

[kensei]

repetitio est mater perfectionis


I had a old university instructor that stated that Repetition is the only way to lead to natural reaction. Counter intuitive but he explained that no one that had ever had a ball thrown at them would not duck, or block or catch the ball! However, working on grabbing a ball out of the air as it is thrown at you is a learned reaction....and repetition of this activity leads to natural action which is perection of movement!

for me Karate and martial training is all about ingraining a natural instinct in the movements.

[jimlukelkc]

Derek I had a bit of think about the points you raised and thought I would try to address each one in my own bumbling way so.... 1/ Utilising body movement to get out of the way..if by this you mean tai-sabaki then definitely yes but this is only as a way to secure an advantage/control.
2/ Making a fist and being able to use it...Definitely, a high percentage of techniques are gross motor skills that you will be able to use under stress when adrenalised and scared.
3/ kicks effective at keeping people at distance/ ...this is where we differ in approach slightly. Any kick low or high is a risky strategy and if done fom a distance runs the risk of telegraphing the movement. Remember we are talking about real situations....refer back to kata and note just how many kicks there really are. Also that originally, none of them were high, this is a recent addition.
4/ Repetition teaches reaction and counter without thought....if your training includes being put under duress and techniques are pressure-tested then I think this can be the case but the truth is few classes do this because they would lose students. Realism is key but it is a truth that pain is is the best teacher but not many want to attend his classes.
5/ Some training is better than none....to a degree I agree with this statement but as instructors we have a duty not to give students a false sense of security or an inflated belief in their own abilities. Some training , especially most knife defence is positively dangerous.

[Allan Shepherd]

Hi Folks

Sorry, to analytical for me. Gives me a headache just thinking about the list! Reminds me of the "dot to dot" pictures for children. I simply put my dogi on and train.

Best Regards
Allan

[th0mas]

Hi Derek

the smart-arse answer is ..

Train as you would fight.

It is certainly true that training in sporting pursuits will certainly increase your chance of "survival" as compared with not having done any. Just through the increased strength, agility and stamina you will have as a result of regular physical sporting exercise...but that is a pretty poor excuse for a Martial Art "it might help in a real fight but not much more than if you played soccer"... kind of a breach of the trades description act IMO.

As has been dicussed on this forum and elsewhere, it is important to be clear about why you are training and make sure that the training gives you what you seek. Context is everything, if you train to be better at winning fighting competitions, the skills you will develop will be focussed on maximising your ability at winning. If you train at perfecting perfect shotokan form, then that is what you will ultimately achieve (given enough time, money and commitment). Although there is some degree of inherited benefit, it is much better to be focussed on what it is you want (and that can be multiple things).

All the tools are there in shotokan karate to provide you with the physical fighting skills necessary for Self-Defence (and I do make a distinction with non-physical aspects of self-protection that are also important if you are really going to teach self-defence).

If self-defence is your goal, it is vitally important that you ensure you understand the principle differences between dojo kumite and real confrontation. Some obvious ones are as follows:

• No clear initiation of aggression (unless you preempt)
  
• The fighting range - close
  
• The intensity - both in terms of speed and the "shock" element
  
• Pre-fight gameplay (self-defence) vs in-fight gameplay (dojo)
  
• etc...
  

all these factors should influence how you practice. As James pointed out... unless you make it habitual you won't perform under the pressure of a self-defence situation. Make your dojo kumite more scrappy and less sparry (sparry?).

Now this may all sound really negative, but infact it actually makes the journey of discovery really interesting. Shifting from long-range to close range changes the implications of stances, how you strike, grabbing, body mechanics, keeping things simple and obviously kata applications etc...

Cheers

Tom

[Bob Davis]

Not disagreeing with what has been previously said BUT………..

Do we really think that the “average” karate dojo is the best place to go if actual self-defence is your main aim?

Although I have come across a (very) few teachers who cover this the general dojo (sweeping generalisation I know there doesn’t seem to do much in the way of situational awareness and avoidance training or much in the way of stress training. It’s all very well training with “more realistic” attacks but how many of us get up close swearing, shouting, threatening, spitting in our partners face before things “kick off” (and how many students would we have if we did?). If you’ve got to the actual physical confrontation stage then what you really need is to be able to do about half a dozen simple things really well and without thinking. My (admittedly limited) experience of the karate dojo is that you will spend the first couple of years doing a lot of things quite badly in an attempt to learn a syllabus and climb far enough through the ranks to start to get to the good stuff (or at least to have enough understanding of what you are actually doing to make a judgement and a choice).

I’m not saying this is a bad thing as there is a lot more to karate as an art than just the self-defence side, just that it’s not a very efficient path if self-defence is your only aim.

Learning how to punch and strike properly and deliver power to a target are obviously of benefit but you do need to hit things (and people, and learn about being hit in return) 5 years of learning how to deliver maximum power at full extension into fresh air isn’t going to help much.

Being fitter and stronger can do no harm (although I’d suggest if you can’t finish it within the first 10-15 seconds then being fit enough to continue the fight for 10 minutes is just delaying the inevitable).

I’m not really convinced that “some training” is better than “none” if that training isn’t geared towards the correct goal, years of training at the wrong distance and against your natural in built stress reactions could actually be seriously detrimental in a genuine confrontation.

Much like Tom, I’m sounding negative but don’t intend to be , the reason I’m still training after all these years is that karate has so much to offer me and so much to learn. Self-defence is part of what I train but only a part, and probably not the major part (I go through phases with this). I didn’t take up karate in the first place for the ability to defend myself but for the art itself (that may be just me of course). Although my experience of students who come through the door and list “wanting to be able to defend themselves” as part of their reason for training is that they don’t really mean it, what they want is the long range punchy/kicky stuff they’ve seen in the movies not the dirty uncomfortable stuff that this really entails.

[Deleted]

Very interesting.

Self defence though has changed for me since I read Dead or Alive. I no longer view self defence as reacting to an attack. I now see it as using Threat and Awareness Evaluation (coupled with a knowledge of the rituals of violence) to spot a situation that may lead to an attack in its embryonic stages and take avoiding action so that it never reaches the stage when an attack comes. Or if it does get that far, launching a pre-emptive strike.

If you believe that an attack cannot be avoided, then YOU need to become the attacker, not wait for it to come and then try to defend.

[th0mas]

You make some good points there Bob.

And in most cases, Karateka are not just focused on achieving only one aim (pure self-protection or just fitness training etc ). They might be at the start, but then the insidious belt system and the silly pajama's start to peek the old interest glands and suddenly you want to live and breath karate...

Certainly when I was 15 the reason I started was because I wanted to learn how to fight better and not in a self-protection perspective ( I got into a lot of fights at that age) - the frustration of hitting someone and seemingly having no effect was very frustrating... and it seemed to be at odds with what I expected to happen (having watched too much A-team etc)

...and over the nearly 30 years, what has interested me has changed but has still kept my enthusiasm going. I am not interested in competitions really anymore, or proving my manliness in the cage, or trying to turd polish my technique to get the perfect form... But I still want to be able to do "shotokan" and I want my personal karate to be effective.

The fact that the legacy of the sporting tradition in 1950's Japan has provided a rather nice intellectual challenge of shaping what I know to become more applicable to realistic combat scenarios is what really grabs me now.

I want karate to be more Ronseal (for our non-UK members it is an outdoor wood vanish that "does what it says on the tin". People who start karate are expecting that it will make them better at being able to defend themselves, so at least the stuff we cover in the dojo should do that...

...not everyone agrees with me ... but that is why forums are great

[th0mas]

May 14, 2013 15:58:06 GMT @rne02 said:

Very interesting.

Self defence though has changed for me since I read Dead or Alive. I no longer view self defence as reacting to an attack. I now see it as using Threat and Awareness Evaluation (coupled with a knowledge of the rituals of violence) to spot a situation that may lead to an attack in its embryonic stages and take avoiding action so that it never reaches the stage when an attack comes. Or if it does get that far, launching a pre-emptive strike.

If you believe that an attack cannot be avoided, then YOU need to become the attacker, not wait for it to come and then try to defend.

Hi Paul

Absolutely, my point about Game playing (4th bullet in previous post) was that in a formal sparring or bout, the tactics, the bluffing and misdirection are all part of the fight. In a real confrontation the game-playing is all pre-fight, the fence, the use of aggressive posturing, situational awareness, triggering adrenaline dumps, getting your mates involved whatever...

[dhodge]

Tom I don't train for competition/sport Karate (my club does at times) and always think of why I am doing something and how it would be applied. I am also versed enough in how my mind and body reacts to both hitting and being hit a broken jaw, several broken ribs, broken hand and a few lost teeth are testament to that in my past. I also fully appreciate not everyone in karate has a fighting capability or the stomach for it but none of that was my point in the topic. I think if you train and apply your training it gives you an advantage Karate I feel give you that, you are free of course to disagree. I also have experience also of knifes and the dangers of them.

[Deleted]

May 13, 2013 19:00:02 GMT dhodge said:

I have been thinking about Karate as a training tool for self defence and if its effective.

Yes karate is a training tool for self defence. But as mentioned above you need to Train properly, realistically as possible. Train with that context in mind. Be aware of the habitual acts of violence. Seek to avoid danger, learn to deescalate dangerous situations. Make use of preemptive striking but know the law and the consequences of your actions.

Read up on Geoff thompsons and Peter Constantine approaches to self protection and defence and check out all the good stuff on Iain Abernthy website.

All the best...

[th0mas]

Hi Derek

I don't disagree, we are essentially training in a Martial Art. my comments about soccer and sport karate are not a comment on your training rather a reflection on how to maximise the benefits of how we train to achieve our own personal goals.

As you imply in your post, most karate clubs have to cater for a range of training objectives and it is important that an individual recognises which aspects of their training are about the "traditional art", which are sport or competition related and which are about dealing with real physical violence.

Clearly you have had some experience of physical violence in your past, so you are probably in a better position to appreciate these differences. However it is very common for people to get a false impression about the effectiveness of different aspects of classical karate training as a result of the broad spectrum of Shotokan karate training goals.

If the discussion is about effective self-defence (putting aside the need to train for awareness and the other pre-fight things) a very common mistake is the lack of awareness about realistic fighting ranges. Classical Shotokan has been heavily influenced by the japanese art of kendo, which, naturally dealing with swords, is focussed at long range. Many of the classical applications such as tai-sabaki and the block-counter mentality are much more effective at long range. Even the selection of our primary fighting tools and techniques and how we apply them (and thus what good-form looks like) is geared towards this long-range mentality.

Some interesting examples of the consequence of the long-range focus to think about:

• Punching/striking - aiming to connect at the end of the technique rather than at the point of maximium power generation.
  
• Stepping punch - very slow long range punching technique, rather than a close range pile-driver and finishing punch.
  
• Hikkite - technique for improving hip rotation or a grab and controlling technique?
  
• Over-focus on Head kicks...jumping spinning kicks...
  
• Block is a block, punch is a punch - really? Uchi-uke, soto-uke, age-uke and gedan-barai are only just blocks at long range..
  

[Deleted]

May 14, 2013 16:31:44 GMT th0mas said:

Hi Paul

Absolutely, my point about Game playing (4th bullet in previous post) was that in a formal sparring or bout, the tactics, the bluffing and misdirection are all part of the fight. In a real confrontation the game-playing is all pre-fight, the fence, the use of aggressive posturing, situational awareness, triggering adrenaline dumps, getting your mates involved whatever...

Yes, your right. I have killed quite a few situations off in the early stages when people realise I am "switched on".

In fact my wife, who is not a martial artist, has used these skills to do the same.

[Allan Shepherd]

Just received the latest issue 116 of "Shotokan Karate Magazine" and in John Cheetham's editorial he mentions watching a self defence seminar recently and whilst the techniques used were brilliant he still not convinced that the type of training involved would not prepare the average karateka for a real situation with someone who was a strong, angry and determined psycho.

Great magazine even after 29 years of continuos subscriptions.

I agree with him when he say's that it is almost impossible to prepare for this scenario as it goes far beyond the physical.

Great article by Matt Price specifically about the kumite competition arena covering the 4 C's to improve same. The fourth C "Come to Fight" is about "Attitude" which is a mindset which must accompany us. This is imperative more so in a real life situation with NO rules, NO referee's, NO comfort zone and definitely NO time scales.

Any further thoughts?

Best Regards
Allan

[dhodge]

Tom I have been re-reading the posts in this topic and forgive my ignorance but I think we both are saying the same things.

Allan I picked my copy up today and have only browsed through it.

[th0mas]

Hi Derek

I would hope so.

Doesn't stop us discussing it further and trying to squeeze out a few more insights or revisit stuff we may have forgotten... :-)

Cheers

Tom

[tomobrien]

We don't do pure Shotokan but most of what we do relates to the street in some way, shape or form