what is legit and why we covet it!

[stevenm]

There's also the two year JKA Instructor's course that they all graduated. By all accounts, pretty intensive stuff. And why would Nakayama go around the world teaching Karate? The JKA is a company. Nakayama was the M.D.. Kanazawa and co. were travelling salesmen. There would be nothing wrong in sending young, dynamic, single men overseas. They are more likely to complete the task than a family man who wants to come home after a year because he misses his wife and kids. In 1960, Nakayama was 47 years old. Probably very capable, but hardly dynamic. Not the man to showcase the physicality of JKA Karate.

There are far better examples of fast tracking eroding the legitimacy of Karate grades, and unfortunately far too many of them. I'd have chosen Elvis Presley, or the structure of the GKR to illustrate the point.

[Allan Shepherd]

Hi gazrichards

I am not getting at anything, I am simply pointing out that when the JKA Instructors Kanazawa and Enoeda etc came over to the UK there was already in situ a number of clubs around the UK with students that had been training for some considerable time as opposed to guys with zero martial arts experience. Who were the 5th dans at Shodan level that you talk about?

Please read your own post, yes the topic is about legitimacy but with the above comment you appear to intimate that these Godan instructors from Japan where in the UK under false pretence masquerading as something that they were not!!

Best Regards
Allan

[nathanso]

Nov 26, 2013 22:42:30 GMT gazrichards said:

So are you suggesting that Kanazawa and enoeda were full time karateka whilst at takushoku university? I doubt that very much.

They were not "full-time", but they were were as different from the typical modern western karate-ka as a member of an elite college basketball or football team is from a typical player in a neighborhood pickup game. They trained 6 days a week for 3-4 hours a day- more in a week than a recreational karate player probably does in a month.

[garage]

Hi Neil comparing a recreational player with the elite does not really work. Members of the UK squad probably did more, which reflected in their success. I an also understand instructors in the UK not accepting that a younger person from another country should be higher grade with less experience, which you can find on various areas of the internet.

Also if after all the training they paid for, if a 20 year old university graduade is better then them they should get their money back.

If you read about the instructors course, it is just more of the same, how this prepares you to be an instructor makes very little sense.

[kensei]

Hey Bert,

The instructor program with the JKA was not just a how to on instructing. I happen to remember when Walter Crowford came back from japan and told us about the course, its more like 2 years in HELL and they break you solidly. The course pushes you to know yourself and Karate much better.

I have to say that I did not see a huge improvement in his Karate over all from when he left...but his ability was different. He could train harder he had a bit of a harder edge in Kumite and he seemed to understand more, but his basics looked the same, his Kata looked the same just way more experienced.

the course in my mind is legit and those that make it all the way through it have some great stories to tell and have been put through some crazy ass training if nothing else.

[stevenm]

Nov 28, 2013 7:32:06 GMT garage said:

Hi Neil comparing a recreational player with the elite does not really work. Members of the UK squad probably did more, which reflected in their success. I an also understand instructors in the UK not accepting that a younger person from another country should be higher grade with less experience, which you can find on various areas of the internet.

Also if after all the training they paid for, if a 20 year old university graduade is better then them they should get their money back.

If you read about the instructors course, it is just more of the same, how this prepares you to be an instructor makes very little sense.

Experience is not automatically an indicator of quality. There are other variables. Frequency of training, Intensity of training, quality of instruction, frequency of grading, slow rates of learning/improvement, and physical decline/injuries, can all have a bearing on the standard of a person's karate. Automatically assuming that if a person is experienced, that they are of a high standard, is wrong in my opinion. As wrong as the assumption that high grade equals high standard. Advancement is not improvement.

[garage]

This an extract from a website which some may have missed this comparision does not make sense either.


In 2003 Sensei Enoeda sadly passed away, leaving his Hakama (formal dress) and Black Belt to Sensei Andy Sherry, signifying that he considered Andy his successor. The JKA could not accept that a westerner could take over and so they tried to appoint Sensei Ohta. In doing so they forced the KUGB to respect Enoeda Sensei’s last wishes, unfortunately this meant leaving the JKA organisation.
Note that when Funakoshi Sensei (an Okinawan) died, they appointed Nakayama Sensei (a Japanese), if we are following tradition they should have appointed another Okinawan.

The result of this was a split within the KUGB with most clubs staying with the KUGB under Sensei Sherry (7th Dan), and a small portion moving with Sensei Ohta (6th Dan), who formed a new organisation called JKA-England (JKA-E).


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Allan Shepherd]

Hello Gary

Any thoughts on my last post?

Hi garage

In reality Sensei Sherry was Sensei Enoeda's successor irrespective of the then KUGB/JKA links simply because they had spent an almost lifetime training together. That in itself goes beyond association ties/links etc. The thing to remember is that the KUGB was the KUGB affiliated to the JKA Japan and not JKA GB/UK or any other at the time. The formation of JKA England then had problems when a large group of clubs and instructors left and formed SKC England.

Best Regards
Allan