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Post by kensei on Nov 14, 2013 14:55:45 GMT
So, I came across a few articles and a post on a web site (http://www.ijka.jp/en/coution/index.html ) that kind of made me think. Now the article or post on the IJKA post does not mean anything to me. I am NOT giving it legitimacy or saying its anything more than what they say it is or even true. However it got me thinking.
I see alot of 7th, 8th, 9th and even the odd 10th dan around that seem to get ranks from thin air...or thinly vailed "gimme's" that probably dont need them. I have seen Nidans that are better teachers and practitioners than Rokudans and Shodans that had stronger charactor than Nandan's. So again I ask...why do we covet rank as a form of legitimacy?
I was a Shodan for nearly 8 years and then a Nidan for 10! I tested for Sandan when My instructor FORCED me to, and I had the conversation with him about how I am not impressed with the current rank structure and how some people seem to test every time they are eligible and are not any better than some people that seem to wait till told! Actually, I know of a few head instructors that are much less impressive than those that have been around forever.
My instructor is a 6th dan and has been for probably 25 years now. And I probably wont test for 4th Dan till my instructor passes away because I simply dont think a Dan certificate makes your Karate any better than a new belt does! Also, I see those that seek rank advancement as a way of making their ability and "power" more legit as being a cancer on Karate. Far to much paper hanging and not enough getting their butt out on the floor to build charactor and develop skills for my liking.
I tell my students that the black belt should NEVER be a goal, it should be a destination that once goes to and not an end of training or a level of satisfaction in training. Just a place you visit while you train.
Now as for this particular situation (picture) I have to say that this individual has the skill to back up any rank that they are claiming, I dont know them personally so charactor is something I can not add to the mix. The certificate be it true or fake is secondary to the skill that this person has as a practitioner! So, dispite the group saying that the certificate and claim of rank is fake...I would say that this person is a damn fine practitioner, so the claim means nothing to me nor does the counter from the group....and another reason that I dont give a fancy poop what rank you claim...its the skills you bring to the table that matter!
So, what makes your radar for legit and why do we all seem to need to SEE written proof that someone is legit...and why is rank so important to us?
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Nov 14, 2013 16:56:14 GMT
Hello James
IJKA got you thinking eh!! We are talking about Asai IJKA and Kato IJKA are we not? Let them both get on with their respective karate since both have so much to offer to those who have not experienced training with either of them.
We all have choices in life, some wish to grade when our minimum time at the previous grade has expired and some wish to grade as and when the notion feels right. What both should have in common is that whoever you are you are equipped with the knowledge and ability to take and pass the next grade and in turn pass on to our juniors. In some respect we do ourselves, our juniors and our instructor an injustice by not grading when we are eligible to do so. Long gone are the days when no one would grade above 5th Dan because in Harada's case Egami was "only" graded to Godan by Funakoshi.
Why all the bitching because so and so is whatever Dan grade!! We should only be concerned with what is going on in our own associations, if we do not like what we see then move on or form our own associations so we can call ourselves whatever we like. Lot of sour grapes should not distract us from training with any particular instructor or association simply because someone else has had a bad experience with them...or have they?
Best Regards
Allan
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Post by Bob Davis on Nov 14, 2013 17:33:04 GMT
And really ,that's the point isn't it, nobody's grade really means anything outside of their own group (and for some of us, it seems, nor does it mean that much in our own groups) and much like James, I only took my last grading because I was told to. Having said that I can see Alan's point because at some point you can become a blockage to your own students progression if you are in a grade orientated group.
For the individual in this particular topic, I don't think anybody really doubts his skill, ability or dedication, past that what grade he has doesn't really matter a damn. If one group or another want to poo-poo the grade as "fake" I think it only really reflects badly on them and they probably have more important things to worry about. If someone were promoting themselves as part of a group fraudulently then there are legal channels for that, otherwise, with something like karate there is no ownership of information or style once it is out there in the public arena and the claiming of ownership of a lineage is more about marketing than the reality of day to day training.
There are those to whom this sort of thing matters, the rest of us probably should just let them get on with it.
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Post by gazrichards on Nov 15, 2013 1:01:59 GMT
I think I have said this before to one of your posts kensei but ranks always seem far less important to those that have achieved a high grade.
In many ways I agree with you and I couldn't give a toss what grade people are and I despise the culture of awarded grades.
If I go to a new dojo to train and the instructor claims to be a 7th dan for instance I will only go back if the training is good, the instructor is knowledgable and I feel I am getting something for my money and time. Like wise the instructor could be a 1st or 2nd dan but if they are awesome and I learn stuff or have a good session I will go back and I think many would.
Obviously if my experience is the opposite and the training session with the 7th dan is crap I will stay away (it's happened many many times to me)
Rank and grade probably holds little importance to many of us on here because we are primarily interested in the karate being done and we have an idea what's what.
A beginner probably doesn't know what each rank means (for instance tonight I trained with my local university MMA society, many of them have never done traditional arts before and for some the MMA group is their first taste of martial arts at all - one guy asked what I had done before and I said I was a 5th dan, he looked at me blankly and I said "black belt" and he instantly knew what I meant) but someone with a little experience knows that 1st dan is a new black belt and 10th dan puts you in the top 20 guys in the world (obviously this isn't always true!)
People will always accelerate their grades (Kanazawa and enoeda did it, probably asai too) and there will always be guys that just make stuff up (there is a guy in my town claiming to be a 9tn dan in judon Okinawan karate? - he is really sh1t and luckily all of his clubs are now starting to fold)
Also every club has different criteria for each grade and differing time scales.
The point is that WE know that rank isn't important. Some clubs and associations put very high importance on it but I dare say that is a big reason why we are possibly not members of those groups.
But MY rank is quite important to ME. I have trained hard for it over many years. Many of my students don't know what grade I am and I'm pretty sure my own mother doesn't know and I'm not about to try and educate them otherwise but to tell a new shodan or a kyu grade that the black belt that they are working towards or have just achieved isn't important is not very polite or fair.
To bring this back to subject a little I agree completely that I couldn't care less about the picture above and the ijka claims. I'm not even 100% sure who the pic is of (but it's Andre bertel right?). I've never trained with Andre but I've seen videos and there is no doubt he is very skilled and talented. There is obviously history between the person in the pic and the ijka and I have no interest in what it is but the subject of people fabricating grades is nothing new in the karate world.
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Post by garage on Nov 15, 2013 5:44:46 GMT
When you start Karate you are childish, egocentric and pathetic and looks like after a long journey you become childish, egocentric and pathetic.
If karate is meant to make you a better person in most senior cases it has clearly failed.
These are people who I wouldn't want my children to aspire to.
So I have learnt they are childish, egocentric and pathetic and crap at being married and want my money.
It doesn't make me think it makes me really disappointed. ( I hate being lied to.)
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Post by kensei on Nov 15, 2013 22:03:08 GMT
Reminds me of a line from the Karate kid...the real Karate kid...When asked about what belt he has Miyagi sensei says "Brown..its leather...holds up my pants" and pretty much sums up how Karate rank should be viewed. Yes Kyu levels and Dan levels "Should" demonstrate maturity in Karate...but as we have all seen it does not always work out that way.
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Post by Bob Davis on Nov 15, 2013 22:50:33 GMT
Then why do we dangle it as a carrot? we make everybody jump through hoops to get to Shodan and then say it doesn't matter, it's not really fair is it?
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Post by garage on Nov 16, 2013 11:47:47 GMT
You are made to jump thourgh hoops so you think it worth something and you hand over your money.
You are a cash cow doing it becuase you think karate has higher aspirations than money, clearly the senior people see it as a money earner. So we have 2 clearly different view points.
Senior instructors are only allowed to do gradings we think standards they think money.
If you go to another organisation start again they want your money.
Clearly they have mastered everything so no need to practice or keep fit. (Stomach over belt)
It is always your round in the bar, and do not expect them to pay income tax.
Instruction is poor, standard is poor as the money is more important than the standard.
They clearly have not gone through the grading process the years do not fit.
So good at business might be ok at karate once but this doesn't make you a great human being, they are two different things.
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Post by kensei on Nov 16, 2013 14:16:15 GMT
Then why do we dangle it as a carrot? we make everybody jump through hoops to get to Shodan and then say it doesn't matter, it's not really fair is it? Perception!! I make everyone jump through hoops, blast them with hard classes, spar hard and work on every little detail of Kata...from White belt to black belt...I dont dangle belts infront of juniors. If a junior does not want to grade I dont force them. I think some instructors do and when they strap on that extra wide ego belt they kind of do it in such a way as to say "MY BELT IS BETTER CUZ ITS BLACK" and walk around with an ego. Those are the ones that have lost sight of what karate training really is. Its putting on your Pj's (or not) and getting your butt on the floor to work out. I know of a lot of instructors in the middle of this but really my job as a Karate "teacher/coach" is to provide good work outs and help people learn. If they pick up rank along the way thats great, but it should never be the focus. I tell all the students from the begining that getting your Shodan means "FIRST STEP" and Karate should be for a life time of growth, or for a short time for interest...but the Black belt is never the "end". I hear you though, some instructors dangle it like a prize. its not a prize! |
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Post by Bob Davis on Nov 21, 2013 19:47:49 GMT
OK, change of direction but (given I was asked the question today) still relevent to the topic I think.
To paraphrase what I was asked, "What makes a 'legitimate' grade and who is able to issue them"?
I'd be interested to hear what the general opinion is as to what a "legitimate" grade actually is and by what standard it is judged, and how we determine what counts as a measure of legitimacy?
I know we have discussed that we (generally) hold demonstratable skill and ability in higher regard than a numerical grade, or in the light of a karate-ka being past his (or her) physical prime, their ability to teach and impart knowledge, but how do we define legitimacy of grade to an outsider from the karate world as a general concept, without going into the whole political "my group is more legitimate than yours for xxxx reason" routine?
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Nov 22, 2013 9:10:32 GMT
Hi Bob
How long is a piece of string? We are not talking about government legislation here we are talking about what "someone" thinks we are worth in term of giving us a coloured belt to wear around our white PJ's.We should not be concerned as to what goes on in any other organisation other than our own.That is where the legitimacy lies amongst our peers with whom we train and who grade us according to their own particular standards, be it good bad or indifferent. If you are unhappy with their lot then move on, after all that has been happening for god knows how long and will continue.
I never ever try to legitimise my grade by talking the leg off someone or making claims by being a keyboard warrior, I simply invite them to train with me and see what I can offer to help them along their way in life.I recently had some very positive feedback from a group of 7 students (two families all dan grades whom I have known since complete beginners) who trained at a club that I have guest instructed at over the years. That is enough for me as I am not after any medals,the acknowledgement spoke volumes about their appreciation.
Best Regards
Allan
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Post by Bob Davis on Nov 22, 2013 10:19:46 GMT
Hi Alan, I have to say that's pretty much my take and the terms in which I tried to explain it, which is why the use of legitimate is probably a poor choice of term, either all grades are legitimate in context or none are ( that's not to say all grades are equivalent  ) The conversation came up because I have just started teaching an after school club in a "deprived" area where the head is an exisiting student of mine. There are no training fees, no membership and no grading fees. I had talked this through with my chief instructor to let him know what I was doing and was quite pleased when he said that he'd come along to the grading and bring certificates so we could do it through the association. However, past experience has shown me that logistically this just might not work out and (as this club will only ever be self contained) I told the head that if it couldn't be arranged I'd be quite happy to grade and issue my own certificates to the students (as they'll be getting the same training, from the same person, to the same level no matter what) which is why the subject of legitimacy came up. I did explain the whole "grades are only relevent in context" to him which he understands and ackowledges although he did cotton on to the fact fairly quickly that as a yellow belt he could just put on a black belt and issue his own grades at any time if he felt like it (this was tounge in cheek BTW) but I had to say yes this was true, anybody can teach karate, his would be cr*p karate but he could do it none the less, (and that it's not totally unheard of  ). His bright idea was then that us karate instructors ought to get together with some of the top guys around the world and form some sort of association to offer standardisation and accreditation (much as in education) but that was a whole other conversation  |
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Post by garage on Nov 22, 2013 13:44:52 GMT
I do not think education have this covered as my degrees are only valid in a particular country and you then have to ask for them to be recognised.
Then there are awarding bodies within each country. In the UK we have NVQ's which are almost impossible to verify they are real.
The is a yellow belt round here doing exactly what you say without his tongue in his cheek.
If you have a certificate from the JKA outside Japan it has no value becuase you are not in Japan.
If you move about you find that your belts and certificates have no value apart from the stupid amount of money you paid for them. I also have no idea what the Japanese writting on them means.
I found if you say you trained with x y and z that normally was enough to get you in most places no one ever checked. I guess they would if you kept falling over. Perhaps my acting is really good and I just look like I can do it.
Does it work? Yes I am still alive, does a belt and certificate help this, in the dark they can't see it anyway.
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Post by kensei on Nov 22, 2013 13:49:21 GMT
"What makes a 'legitimate' grade and who is able to issue them"? |
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Post by jimlukelkc on Nov 23, 2013 8:00:17 GMT
If you are an adult and your focus is purely promotion through the ranks, I feel you are missing the point. I think it is a good tool for giving kids a goal or incentive to train but if your training as an adult is syllabus heavy leaving little space for pragmatic, applicable self-protection, then you need to take along hard look at your motives.
I personally try to impress on my students it is the learning process itself that matters not the reward of coloured cloth.
However I think it is disrespectful and demotivating in a lot of cases to tell students their belts are worthless, pointless etc. If we do that then they can quite rightly ask why we have them at all and why it is so expensive to acquire one.
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Post by garage on Nov 23, 2013 12:30:02 GMT
I Have recently had to employ some instructors to teach some classes,someone else does this for me so we had to look at them being legitimate.
So I found Tae Kwon do is recognised by sport England as it is an olympic sport so it instructors seem employable. Boxing has an association so they are employable. Judo does well. MMA instructor had all the paperwork recognised by sport England.
Shotokan seems the least legitamate as they are recognised in Japan and so unless they are affiliated to FEKO or something they have the least standing and the least chance of being able to run classes at public venues.
So if you want legitmate belts Tae kwon do, which has gradings to 7th dan would be a slightly better bet in this country anyway.
If you stay in your club no one is going to tell you it is worthless, it is only when you move somewhere else that it becomes apparent as they want to take more money off you by telling you it is worthless. Normally these kind of people are called muggers. It is a business for the people at the top with lots of suckers that run clubs for free who have been conned in to thinking it is something more.
It clearly shows being good at karate does not stop you being greedy.
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Post by gazrichards on Nov 23, 2013 18:45:35 GMT
I strongly disagree with some of what is posted above by Jim and Bert. I am a shotokan practitioner (primarily).
Bodies like feko or even tne ekf/wkf don't provide legitimacy of grades or ability. They don't even legitimatise your credentials as a coach or instructor as you don't need police clearance or public liability insurance to join them.
Sadly there is no way to legitimise anyones grades other than by viewing their own ability (either as an instructor or general karate skills). Some people hold a lower grade than they possibly should by choice (refusal to pay over inflated grading fees or jump through an examiners hoops) or some due to an examiner refusing to grade them due to internal politics (can't grade dave because that will make him the same grade as Pete and Pete is my mate and a fellow examiner and if we have loads of examiners in the federation I can't keep creaming money of all the other instructors etc etc etc)
Some guys are low grades but brilliant at karate because they study and train and have talent! Hopefully their time will come and they are possibly the future legends of karate.
To legitimise yourself as an instructor really all you can do is get yourself insured, first aid trained and police checked all whilst maintaining a professional standard of conduct where necessary.
To cross Jim's point, not everyone wants pragmatic self defence based martial arts. Some adults like to train to compete and some just for fun. It's not our place to pick fault with them. If someone runs a sports karate club and has a bunch of guys that have trained a couple of times a week and meet the set requirements of the syllabus (whatever they may be) then they have a black belt within that club. It's as simple as that really.
There is obviously the problem where guys in these sports clubs are under the impression that the jumping spinning kick and tonfa kata that they are learning will stop them getting their head kick in by the pikeys outside the local pub but that is a different topic entirely I feel.
Karate is a very broad spectrum and encompasses a huge variety of styles, systems, formats and more. It's impossible to legitimise what we all do because of this.
I have a 5th dan in shotokan but I train with some sports karate and kick boxers from time to time for fun and I usually get beat in the sports arena by guys my grade, I don't get hurt but I get points scored against me - a very different thing but it doesn't make their training any less viable for what they are trying to achieve.
By the way, I am affiliated to the bcka and the ekf.
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Post by nathanso on Nov 23, 2013 21:42:51 GMT
To return to Bob's question:
If asked, I would tell people that rank means different things in different organizations but in general is some relative measure of a combination of physical skill, teaching ability, and amount of time in, service to, and place in the hierarchy of the organization. The relative weights of those factors may vary both between different orgs and different people in the same orgs. I would also say that there is no reason to assume that any organization would recognize a different org's ranks any more than you would expect one religion to recognize a different religion's hierarchical rankings.
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Post by garage on Nov 24, 2013 6:18:27 GMT
Hi Gaz, I do not see you are disageeing at all.
Originally the was Martial Arts Commision and then I noticed FEKO on one of the licenses I briefly had which means you could run a club. Like you say no CRB, or instructor qualification first aid. When I tried to use my license to teach in a school I found it wasn't legitamate. Where as the aerobic instructors YMCA coaching certificate was.
TKD, Judo, Boxing are able to present me with Valid Coaching certificates from programes set up in their organisation so therefore they are more legitamate and he easier to employ than the usual Japan registared Blackbelt.
So in one of the posts above it asks how are we seen from outside? I am sorry to say I wouldn't be able to give myself a job despite being able to empoly self defence and MMA instructors as they have the paperwork and I don't. Despite having instructed alot. I do not feel comfortable employing a 30 year old 5th dan, and a self defence instructor as I feel there is more than what they offer, legally I am allowed to.
So they are legit and I am not despite a nice certificate with writing that I cannot understand says it is useful in Tokyo am not.
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Post by gazrichards on Nov 24, 2013 8:21:46 GMT
The fact that a grade was awarded by a Japanese instructor or in japan doesn't make you any more legitimate than otherwise.
I know guys that had to retake 3rd dan gradings for instance when they switched to kanazawas skif bunch. If you look at kanazawas timeline for grades it is anything but legitimate. 1st dan inside 12 months! 2nd dan within 3 years or so and 5th dan in 11 years!!!!
Also there are guys in the uk that have 45 years experience in karate now. Some haven't put on a gi with any anger for 20 odd years but some still live and breathe the art and are very impressive. A grade awarded by one of these is equally as legitimate as anything awarded by a Japanese instructor that was fast tracked through some grades to be shipped around the world and spread the art form.
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Post by garage on Nov 24, 2013 12:11:24 GMT
I have to agree with you but, it was only when I tried to use it in a school that I realised this, how stupid am I?
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Post by gazrichards on Nov 24, 2013 13:12:01 GMT
Well there is the obvious fact that karate grades can't equate to real world qualifications. It's a shame because essential many of us have spent our lives studying karate and have a depth of knowledge equal to a masters degree or even a phd.
My wife has a phd in echo-cardiology and is a university lecturer and says that you can do a masters degree by research thesis or something and it seems like something a lot of us a capable of doing if it were actually possible.
It doesn't help when there isn't even a real governng body for karate, just lots of pseudo bodies that are actually just businesses protecting their little corner. I have a n instructors "qualification" through a governing body. To get it I had to pay the instructors membership fee (I am also currently training as a nvq assessor and I hope to get around to writing a martial arts instructor level 2 certificate qualification)
Also the uninitiated don't even know what dan grades are. The number of times a teacher, acquaintance, family friend etc asks what belt I am and when I respond "5th dan" they look back blankly so I say "black belt".
Black belt means something to everyone, the other dan grades don't.
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Post by garage on Nov 24, 2013 19:23:43 GMT
I notice that Derby University is offering a Martial Arts Degree, a part of which is business. Same as Nakayama was at a business University.
The Derby is charging about £8900 a year and it is not in the Russell Group of Universities who only charge £9000 a year a £100 more gives you a Degree from a decent university so we are back to who's degree is more legit.
I also notice Karate doesn't recognise real world qualifications either, I have level 5 teaching qualifications, I watched some shockingly bad training sessions but they are so arrogant that you can't say anything. Academic snobbery is just bad as bad as karate snobbery so writting a PHd on karate whatever it is, isn't going to make it more valid. I sure you could do a masters by research but the Karate world isn't going to recognise it.
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Post by gazrichards on Nov 24, 2013 19:34:51 GMT
No but the karate world would recognise your dan rank, the real world would recognise the fact that you have a masters degree in karate.
Let's be brutally honest. The only way to validate your grade/ability etc is to put on your gi, walk in to someone else's dojo and hold your own.
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Post by garage on Nov 26, 2013 10:07:01 GMT
Brutal Honesty is the best it makes me smile the most, and makes me feel really valid.
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Post by kensei on Nov 26, 2013 12:45:35 GMT
Last night I snuck into one of our Dojos and watched a class from the galley. Its a brand new club and it has this great nook you can watch from and the instructor does not see you. I watched one of our Shodans teaching a class to the junior belts and he was fantastic. Very humble, personable and he taught with passion. That is what legit means to me.
I have watched classes (and trained in them) and watched instructors blow up their Egos and teach the "in the old days" and "I can do this, but you cant" kind of crap and it showed me that their rank was NOT legit in my mind.
Karate is a very personal thing to me,I think that up to Nidan or Sandan you are showing what you can do...past that you need to be showing who you are and what you can get others to do. Just my thought however.
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Post by stevenm on Nov 26, 2013 21:42:22 GMT
The fact that a grade was awarded by a Japanese instructor or in japan doesn't make you any more legitimate than otherwise. I know guys that had to retake 3rd dan gradings for instance when they switched to kanazawas skif bunch. If you look at kanazawas timeline for grades it is anything but legitimate. 1st dan inside 12 months! 2nd dan within 3 years or so and 5th dan in 11 years!!!! Also there are guys in the uk that have 45 years experience in karate now. Some haven't put on a gi with any anger for 20 odd years but some still live and breathe the art and are very impressive. A grade awarded by one of these is equally as legitimate as anything awarded by a Japanese instructor that was fast tracked through some grades to be shipped around the world and spread the art form. Whilst I understand what you are saying with regard to fast tracking, and the legitimacy of those grades, I think that you have to think in terms of hours on the mat, rather than years. Most of us mere mortals train for what? Four or five hours a week? Professional instructors do that in a day. Also, the kudos attached to those grades, was intended to attract students, which surely is the purpose of sending out those instructors in the first place. Personally, I feel that Kanazawa, and the other instructors who were sent out to propagate JKA Karate were worthy of their grades. |
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Post by gazrichards on Nov 26, 2013 22:42:30 GMT
So are you suggesting that Kanazawa and enoeda were full time karateka whilst at takushoku university? I doubt that very much. Once they came to the uk maybe but who did they have around to train with and guide them (bearing in mind they had 11/12 years karate experience which is comparable to a decent 2 nd dan in most good dojos these days)
I dare say that nakayama et al sent Kanazawa, enoeda etc abroad because they didn't want to go themselves. "Let's send the guys in their 20s without wives and kids so we can stay here"
When they arrived in the uk the guys they were teaching had zero martial arts experience and so being taught by a 5th dan of shodan level wasn't a problem and no one would know any different.
The British guys do it too, I used to be very close to one of kanazawas 7 samurai and now an 8th dan I believe. Some of his contemporaries advertise them selves as "British champion 1967-69" etc during those years the championship was probably of the standard of most local events nowadays with very small entry numbers and generally low numbers of overall participation in karate at the time. I'm sure there are a higher number of world, European and national champions posting on this forum than is generally possible too.
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Nov 27, 2013 8:45:58 GMT
Hi gazrichards
"When they arrived in the uk the guys they were teaching had zero martial arts experience and so being taught by a 5th dan of shodan level wasn't a problem and no one would know any different"
Wait a minute!! Have you not read Dr Clive Layton's book about the early years of Karate with Vernon Bell in the UK and the formation of the KUGB? I would have thought with you being a 5th Dan (time in gi and obi) you would know our Shotokan history in the UK.
Best Regards
Allan
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Post by gazrichards on Nov 27, 2013 9:34:04 GMT
I'm well aware of Vernon bell. I'm also aware of the fact that in the early sixties there were about 55 people registered as members of his new org at the time.
I'm not quite sure what you are getting at Allan? Are you doubting that the first Japanese "karate tourists" accelerated their grades? And that the British probably did the same too?
The talent pool in British karate at the time was very thin, I don't think anyone can argue with that.
This thread is a discussion on the legitimacy of peoples grades and many wrongly think that a grade awarded in japan or by a Japanese instructor is more legitimate than those that are not. I very strongly disagree.
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