Wake up and smell the coffee? Who you kidding

[garage]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAqXFZBW61o

Here is a Penn and teller show. Watch and convince yourself what your doing is valid. A gun is cheaper and has the same illegal result.

Are you over reacting? Or just kidding yourself as you freeze anyway?

Oh well off to train again it is another day.

[Deleted]

Who said that everyone who trains is training for Self Defence?

Virtually nothing I do in the dojo has anything to do with Self Defence becasue martial arts and self defence are not the same thing. I could count on the fingers of one hand the techniques I would even attempt to use outside the dojo. I train Martial Arts for one very very god reason. It's fun.

[kensei]

Wow, not often I get to say this...I dont agree with either of you. First off the whole "Its legal" argument is based on location of the argument. If you have it on your side of the boarder (IE in the US) you are right, however the rest of of us (Being in the UK or Canada or....well just about any other place I can think of that has internet)its not. If I carry a gun and use it in self defense in my country...I go to jail for having a gun!...and then their is the whole "you were carrying a gun, you meant to use it...MURDER" thingy. I can not legally carry a gun for self defense in Canada...period. So, Karate is probably better than Jail time...or long term federal housing as we call it here.

Now, as far as Karate not for self defense....you are obviously not training in the right Dojo (I say with a wink and a grin). Seriously, any random body movement if trained enough could probably be applicable in a street fight situation..>hell training in soccor (foot ball for those of you 'cross the pond') and learning to kick that sucker...well that would be perfect for 90% of the yam sack attacks I have seen, and probably end a fight right quick!

Penn and Tellers show is based in the states, and it is skewed to the laws their and I respect that. One thing they fail to mention, a recent statistic out of the New York police violence project (cant recal the exact name of the study) stated that in 47% of the death by hand gun cases they investigated it was due to the person who DIED brining their own firearm to the event. IE they got shot by their own guns! So, carry a gun...well you might die by it. Carry Karate knowledge, well its not going to be used against you by the attacker at the least.

[garage]

If the aim of karate is to "Kill with one blow" the result with gun or Karate is the same. They are both premediated so murder rather than manslaughter.

I accept taking Karate to the party is harder to prove than a big bulge in your pocket, just pleased to see you?

You are more likely to go to a party if you do not spend your time training. Guns are illegal but they still seem find their way into night clubs here.

[daveb]

The aim of karate is not and never has been to kill with one blow. That is the aim of sword fighting.

[makoto]

daveb. What is the aim of karate? What is the aim of Shotokan karate?

[malk103]

I had to stop watching after the wierd woman came on, it looks like P&T have picked some oddballs and trying to make some strange point about saving your money and just give in to a mugger.
The best advice I have heard in their first situation at gun(or knive)point is to give them your cash, I also give this advice as there is no need to try and fight unless you are being attacked - or in real fear that you will get hit/shot/stabbed anyway.

It's true that a large part of any class are just their for fun or they don't like other sports, most won't get to Black belt or become any good at it but you should hopefully keep the ones that do excel. All students will hopefully be richer for the experience however far they went up the Kyu tree.
It's also fair to say that there is a large amount of bullsh!t out there, McDojo types and money makers will be lucky to produce anyone who can defend themselves.

I think the kill with one blow is more about making the first real hit count so you don't have to fight for long or risk getting jumped by their mates, hit them, hurt them, knock them out if possible and leg-it!
The aim of Shotokan Karate is lots of different things and is in the eye of the student. Probably different to the old Masters of years ago, different for the kids in Japan, different for the average well off Westerner practicing for fun or to be more confident, etc etc etc

As for gun laws and carrying one, I think most people shot are either part of a gang, in a very bad area or just damn unlucky, having another gun will just get more people shot or yourself in problems, having Karate won't make a difference in most situations, unless you count the awareness and avoidence of trouble.

Back to P&T, they may have pleased a few viewers and provided a contraversial talking point but when they are old and lame through inactivity then we will still be in the Dojo punching the air....

[daveb]

As I understand the history, Shotokan was meant to produce citizens of good character. First to take forward the power of the empire, then later to rebuild japan and promote peace.

Karate in general was for self defence. Killing was never expressly part of that deal. Furthermore the training culture that is suspected of originating the makiwara (jigen ryu) was one of high volume machine gun striking, making the idea of the single killing power shot an anomaly. Funakoshi's words on the subject were actually that you should aim to end the fight with every blow, not actually training to take lives with one shot as my honourable friend implies by a literal reading of a misquoted maxim.

[garage]

The great think about quoting Funakoshi is it changes over the years to suit his aims.

Before WW2 he is estoling the virtues of Karate for military service and spreading Japanese culture in conquered countries, this was typical of the jingoistic attitude of the time.

Each punch on the makiwara seems to be a separate strike according to the books. What training culture does high volume machine gun striking, the method of striking in Wing Chung is a different way of producing power.

Why do we have Ippon Kumite if we get lots of shots?

Obviously I have read these words which contridict themselves in a different way...

[daveb]

Jul 11, 2014 10:52:31 GMT garage said:

Each punch on the makiwara seems to be a separate strike according to the books. What training culture does high volume machine gun striking, the method of striking in Wing Chung is a different way of producing power.

As I said, Jigen ryu, the sword style of the Satsuma clan famed for striking at training posts thousands of times, a method they take into battle, slashing furiously at the opponent.

Why do we have Ippon Kumite if we get lots of shots?

The same reason we have push-ups and sit-ups. Ippon kumite is just training that isolates one area of fighting.

A better question is why in Hiean Nidan do we have a sequence: front kick, reverse punch, step and trap w/back-fist strike, if we kill our opponents on the first blow.

Obviously I have read these words which contridict themselves in a different way...

Where exactly is the contradiction?

[garage]

First of thanks for the answers to the questions, I now have some reading to do.


"A better question is why in Hiean Nidan do we have a sequence: front kick, reverse punch, step and trap w/back-fist strike, if we kill our opponents on the first blow." answer " Do the kata correctly, the real fight is a different matter." Funakoshi.

If you read Funakoshi works over a period of decades it changes and often contradicts it's self I guess to suit the audience he was writing for at the time.

Jigen-ryū is known for its emphasis on the first strike: Jigen-ryū teachings state that a second strike is not even to be considered.

[daveb]

Interesting. That sounds much more like iado than anything based on real fighting.

I came to the origin story of jigen ryu through the Work of German karate historian Henning Whitwer (sp?). Then I looked it up on YouTubeand though there wasn't much what I saw mostly fit the info in the book. Still I could be wrong.

With regards to your quote of GF, saying the obvious point that a fight and a preset routine are not the same is not a reason to ignore everything else that he and every other Okinawan master ever wrote about kata. What is there to study about kata if not the sequences of techniques and how they apply both directly and theoretically to combat.

Even if you could use that one line to write off the argument against focus on a single blow, you'd still have dozens of kata showing combinations of strikes to explain away.

[garage]

I would not group GF and other Okinawans karateka together, many of them write what a fraud he was and didn't like what he did at all. Whilst some of this could be envy of his success there is quite a bit of it.

Also I remember learning kata where you step back instead of forward, didn't do them enough for them to stick. Personally I think they are stories, since GF didn't approve of sparring perhaps why some things will not fit as they are the ideas of more than one person.

Still good to contemplate these things whilst one is training.

[daveb]

Jul 11, 2014 21:29:14 GMT garage said:

I would not group GF and other Okinawans karateka together, many of them write what a fraud he was and didn't like what he did at all. Whilst some of this could be envy of his success there is quite a bit of it.

I would dispute that as the only Okinawan I've heard of criticising GF was Motobu. Meanwhile he had the support of Itosu, Mabuni, Miyagi, Hanashiro and all those who shared kata with him and his son.

Even if what you say is true their independently made comments on kata all support the same view. Their opinions of one another are meaningless anyway, but if they hold the same view on kata while denigrating one another that's pretty powerful evidence that it is correct.

Also I remember learning kata where you step back instead of forward, didn't do them enough for them to stick. Personally I think they are stories, since GF didn't approve of sparring perhaps why some things will not fit as they are the ideas of more than one person.

Sorry but I don't understand what you mean by this?

[/quote]

[garage]

Sorry the last bit was answering another post and got mixed up.

I have to cross reference this to Jack Dempsey Sensei, Championship boxing and aggressive defence, where he advocates finishing quickly before things get complicated

[daveb]

Just out of interest, I found this video, Jigen Ryu Heiho Kenjutsu - 32nd Nippon Kobudo Enbu: youtu.be/JnLNExI_uK4

Nobody wants to prolong a violent confrontation, but training as if you only need to land one blow to incapacitate an opponent is delusional. It is the kind of thinking and training that has seen karate rubbished and ridiculed mercilessly. It takes no account of the opponent's abilities, it ignores the limitations a single paradigm places on you and the vulnerabilities that follow, (ie if your uber gyakuzuki fails you have nothing else), it focusses the student on an unprovable aim and has limited bearing on the ideas presented in the kata.

[garage]

Thank you for the video, interesting the effect of wooden bokken, I notice if the speed is right they have a cutting effect. I do not have real blade so I do not know if I can make them sing, I have to make do with the whoosh.

I think that the uber gyakuzuki was from counter punching competition. It is not the strongest punch, a stepping punch is going to be stronger than a hip twist. It puts you closer to your attacker. I notice in Kyokoshin that the gyakuzuki are swapped for oi zuki as they are considered the stronger technique.

If you do not answer the first question (attack) you do not get the chance to try the second question. Pratically I have felt very frustrated as I have hit the once and they won't get up so I can continue hitting them, my attitude is so poor I am unable to calm down for days. I get emotional with the whole death threat thing. So I guess I am training with the idea that every technique has the potential to be effective. Thank you for your input.

[Deleted]

Jul 9, 2014 11:06:37 GMT kensei said:

Wow, not often I get to say this...I dont agree with either of you. First off the whole "Its legal" argument is based on location of the argument. If you have it on your side of the boarder (IE in the US) you are right, however the rest of of us (Being in the UK or Canada or....well just about any other place I can think of that has internet)its not. If I carry a gun and use it in self defense in my country...I go to jail for having a gun!...and then their is the whole "you were carrying a gun, you meant to use it...MURDER" thingy. I can not legally carry a gun for self defense in Canada...period. So, Karate is probably better than Jail time...or long term federal housing as we call it here.

Now, as far as Karate not for self defense....you are obviously not training in the right Dojo (I say with a wink and a grin).

My apologies, I have failed to clarify, I was referring to my own training, not to karate. Karate is very much for self defence (although as you rightly point out, you have to be training in the right dojo . I no longer train in karate although there are huge amounts of karate in what I do, and Karate (of people like Iain Abernethy and John Burke etc) helps me adapt what I do for self defence.

[Deleted]

Jul 10, 2014 8:34:39 GMT garage said:

If the aim of karate is to "Kill with one blow" the result with gun or Karate is the same. They are both premediated so murder rather than manslaughter.

It isn't, otherwise kata would be one move long. The aim is to escape.

Secondary, in my country at least, even if you attack (or kill) pre-emptively, you can still claim self defence as long as you "If the jury thought that that in a moment of unexpected anguish a person attacked had only done what he honestly and instinctively thought necessary, that would be the most potent evidence that only reasonable defensive action had been taken ..."

[Jakub Cižek]

Jul 10, 2014 8:34:39 GMT garage said:

If the aim of karate is to "Kill with one blow" the result with gun or Karate is the same. They are both premediated so murder rather than manslaughter.

I accept taking Karate to the party is harder to prove than a big bulge in your pocket, just pleased to see you?

You are more likely to go to a party if you do not spend your time training. Guns are illegal but they still seem find their way into night clubs here.

I believe that the training required to handle a gun and to handle your fists as weapons are the same. Shooting at an aim is like punching the makiwara, but it takes another level to take it to real action.

[garage]

I would suggest that this would be a lower level, to behave like an animal is a lower level. Do you take what you want? This how Kings behaved in history doesn't make it right.Is might right if it is you that decides?