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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 15:40:35 GMT
At what point would you say a tradtional karateka' or club no longer practices tradtional shotokan karate but has become freestyle or some other label?
Is it from stopping the formal opening ceremonies of shomeni rei, sensei ni rei, otaga ni rei?
No longer starting all kihon techniques from gedan barai but using a jyu kamae stance and hand position? Even for beginners.
Or ditching the usual gohon, sanbon or kihon ippon kumite drills in favour of more kata based - self defence drills as prescribed by Iain Abernethy?
I would be interested in knowing what your thoughts are in this matter and if you have changed your karate practices from the standard practices of JKA karate...
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Post by kensei on Jan 8, 2014 17:27:14 GMT
At what point would you say a tradtional karateka' or club no longer practices tradtional shotokan karate but has become freestyle or some other label? Is it from stopping the formal opening ceremonies of shomeni rei, sensei ni rei, otaga ni rei? No longer starting all kihon techniques from gedan barai but using a jyu kamae stance and hand position? Even for beginners. Or ditching the usual gohon, sanbon or kihon ippon kumite drills in favour of more kata based - self defence drills as prescribed by Iain Abernethy? I would be interested in knowing what your thoughts are in this matter and if you have changed your karate practices from the standard practices of JKA karate... For me its much easier to explain what traditional is in my view and then go from their. A traditional JKA club focuses on the three K's, they do the JKA Sylabus of Kata, they perform Kumite in a specific way (no boxing gloves and free sparring standing up with weird kicks) and they stick to a very basic set of Kihon waza that is "familure" to all of us. Now that is not to say that if you throw in hook kicks or dropping (Axe) kicks that you have left traditional behind! No, my view of traditional JKA karate is that when it comes to Kumite you are creative and inventive in your free style, but stick to the ridged system when doing set up kumite like Sanbon kumite. When you start throwing in ground work, weapons training, Aikido like throws and such you are not following tradition. Now experementing and throwing in the odd class that has a joint lock or some Ne-waza will not kick you out of the traditionalist club, it just means you are having fun. I also think that omiting some of the traditional dogma and formalities will not really throw you off the traditional boat per see. I know some Muslims that refuse to bow and a really religious christian that wont bow to anyone...but they still do traditional practice. This is an age old question and only my answer. I am sure that others have other answers and I totally respect them.
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Post by Bob Davis on Jan 8, 2014 21:31:42 GMT
It depends really on your view of what "traditional" means. I'm only really playing devil's advocate hear as I presume, in most peoples minds at least, JKA style Karate is what is considered "Traditional" Shotokan karate but why is that the case? It certainly isn't the karate of Funakoshi and is, in the scheme of things, a relatively recent version of karate based around "duel" fighting long distance sporting techniques (was Funakoshi a big sports fan?). There is an argument that could be (and currently is) made that the "more kata based - self defence drill" karate IS the traditional version of karate and JKA style training is just a temporary deviation, which is why you are seeing more and more people moving away from it to a more practical style. Personally I think it's foolish to try and claim the "traditional" label for any of them as this tends to indicate a stagnant art that is developing no further "we do it this way because we've always done it this way" and I don't think you can even accuse the JKA of that. What's important (in my opinion only, obviously ) is does your training give you what you want out of it, if so then enjoy it and stop trying to claim the high ground (it really doesn't matter at the end of the day), there's just good karate and bad karate and for most credible paths they are all just sub-sets of what was "traditional".
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Post by nathanso on Jan 9, 2014 2:17:36 GMT
Bob's post mirrors what I was about to say. If "traditional shotokan" means following the JKA way, then It is heavily based on the 3K's. Within that framework, as James said, there can be a lot of variation. That said, despite what the JKA claims on their website, I don't view that as "traditional". Depending on whether you want to date it from GF's arrival in Japan, or want to start with the post-WWII changes, "shotokan is either 90 or 70 years old, too new to be really traditional. In any case, it is the nature of human activities to evolve and progress.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2014 6:38:20 GMT
Bob are you suggesting I was trying to claim the moral high ground? I asked a question to gather opinion and clarify ideas. Those who know me would never think of me as claiming any moral high ground. However, you raised a good point in saying their is only good karate and bad karate. So rather than focus on tradtional which may be a contentious word how about defining what is good karate?
In no particular order for me good karate is... Developing efficient and fluid techniques, moving from A to B as quickly and powerfully as possibly. Develops balance and coordination. Improves fitness, flexibility and stamina. Is interesting, fun, challenging and rewarding. Is a practical form of self defence at close range devoid of fancy or flashy moves.
Any other ideas.
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jan 9, 2014 9:42:20 GMT
Difficult one this . If traditional means stagnant , unchanging and adhering to ancient practice then karate cannot be accused of that. Shotokan itself is mostly relatively new. Competitive kumite and superficial kata practice . Emphasis on less practical but more athletic technique. I could go on but you get the picture. These are all modern innovations . To practice " traditional " karate would require we abandon these practices surely? I would prefer to practice an martial art that is evolving and fluid, not keeping old traditions and ways of doing things merely because thats how we have always done things .
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Post by Bob Davis on Jan 9, 2014 10:55:17 GMT
Hi Alan,
No that was not my intention (but reading back I can see how it could be taken that way so apologies).
My point was that there is a tendency to use the word "Traditional" (and my group is as fond of this as any) to imply that they are somehow better than those people doing that "funny stuff" that isn't real karate because "it doesn't look like what we do", and there is more of a risk that by being "traditional" we do tend to stagnate because doing it the traditional way becomes more important than actually evaluating the what and why of what we do, I have seen this in action.
Now, this may seem like a contradiction but I have absolutely no issue with groups using the "traditions" of what has become perceived as the accepted norm of Shotokan karate, the formalisation of dojo etiquette, the use of rei, the Japanese terminology etc... (it's part of what I love about it) and although JKA style shotokan is relatively new after what (in training terms) is probably more than 10 generations I think they (we) are entitled to think of those things as traditions, that doesn't however make their karate traditional as there are many earlier and longer established forms of training.
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Post by gazrichards on Jan 9, 2014 11:31:13 GMT
Interesting thread this one, I think the term tradition can mean different things to everybody. I suppose you can define traditional karate in 2 seperate eras. The traditional Japanese era being from the 1920s ish onwards and then the Okinawan era that predates it.
Personally I would say that traditional karate is the original Okinawan ryu styles. I will validate this by suggesting they are MORE traditional than the jka as they use the original Okinawan kata names instead of funakoshi/itosu translations. I was taught that karate is from Okinawa and funakoshi and Itosu made changes in order to popularise the art in japan.
Having said that I see no problem with the JKA a describing what they do as traditional or even Andy Sherry and kugb calling what they do as traditional. How old does something have to be in order to be traditional? For example, it is often described as a tradition that Liverpool FC supporters sing "you'll never walk alone" when the song itself was written in the 40s and was probably adopted by Liverpool fans years later. There are many other things that in day to day life we call tradition that are probably only 20 or 30 years old (it's tradition to watch the great escape or only fools and horses at Xmas)
I don't describe my karate as traditional and I hate the term if I'm honest, partly because of the way some organisations use it to look down on others and also because I would rather be viewed as a young, fresh and forward thinking karate ka. In fact I try not to describe myself as a shotokan practitioner as I see very few similarities between my karate and funakoshis karate. I use a shotokan kata syllabus but I have learned and taught other kata, I also prefer other styles versions of technique such as the kimura shukokai double hip punches etc.
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jeffcapstick
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When your temper rises, lower your fists. When your fists rise, lower your temper.
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Post by jeffcapstick on Jan 9, 2014 12:07:07 GMT
Tradition, to me, is following the lessons of those who have gone before, not just simply doing something because that is the way it was done before. Creativity is vital in practising any type of art. Matsu Basho wrote something like "Do not blindly follow in the footsteps of those who have gone before, but rather seek what they sought." That is what tradition is to me. It is also more inkeeping with the practises of Mabuni, Funakoshi, Egami, Miyagi, Kanazawa, Nakayama, Itosu et al, all of whom took what they learnt and created something that could be argued as being "new", in line with the concept of Shuhari.
Kind regards
Jeff
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2014 12:48:15 GMT
Thanks Bob, I probably shouldn't be so paranoid!
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Post by Bob Davis on Jan 9, 2014 12:50:13 GMT
No problem, I probably should re-read more
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Post by th0mas on Jan 9, 2014 14:50:56 GMT
Rather than use the term "traditional" to describe JKA Shotokan Karate, I prefer the term "classical". For me that makes a distinction from the Traditional Karate styles (Okinawan based) and their later Japanese offshoots such as Wado and shotokan etc.
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Post by makoto on Jan 9, 2014 15:33:29 GMT
Traditional karate is hard to describe. I do things in my dojo that many would say is not traditional karate, yet, I feel it is in keeping with the intention of true karate. I try to teach a safe and practical way of using the body to make effective technique. Function comes before form. Effective karate and proper attitude is valued more than anything else. But, this is my version of traditional karate. Another's version might be different.
Question: When did the term "traditional karate" became widespread? What was it called before that? "Japanese Karate"?
I think the big difference is when training for tournaments, looking pretty, using excessive upper body strength, MMA style of fighting, becomes your main focus, then you are not doing traditional karate. But this is my opinion. I am sure others will not agree.
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Post by garage on Jan 9, 2014 23:34:10 GMT
I do traditional Karate when what I do doesn't work and I want to hide and not face reality. It makes it some sort of quasi religion where I stop thinking and just do because I was told to.
I am not that big and I have to accept I am not going to take on larger MMA fighters on their terms. Karate assumes the other person is trying to hit you rather than choke you, so if you do not adjust to this it isn't going to work. I am not the least bit interested in culture or etiqute. I never will graduate from karate as what I do will always be crap and there will always something that has to be done another way with no evidence that backs it up. Do you want to dance?
If you spar using someone else's rules they are not going to do you any favours they will be set to give them an advantage so they can feel good at your expense.
Oh yawn I am boring myself
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Post by garage on Jan 11, 2014 14:00:17 GMT
Well Bert, Funakoshi didn't agree with sparing and boycotted anyone that did sparing, as karate is to dangerous to spar. Gojo and shotokai do not have sparing so if you have any type of sparing you are not doing traditional Karate.
If you are not Grumpy and think you are the only one that got it right you are not doing traditional karate.
If you listen to music and allow any pleasure in your life it is not traditional.
If you do not give your money away willing to someoneelse it is not traditional karate.
If you do not ruin your mairrage it is not tradition karate. I could go on I still have a ball and chain I do not do real karate.
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jeffcapstick
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When your temper rises, lower your fists. When your fists rise, lower your temper.
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Post by jeffcapstick on Jan 11, 2014 19:08:04 GMT
Here is a passage from the new book by Chris Denwood - "Naihanchi(Tekki) Kata: The Seed of Shuri Karate" that I think belongs in this thread.
"The definition of the word tradition is 'to conform to the beliefs and customs handed down from generation to generation'. Thus, if you view karate as a tradition you will see that the art was originally developed through the melding of native Okinawan arts with non-indigenous fighting systems. Not only that, but as with the example given of Sanchin Kata earlier, the content of the teachings were openly modified in order to personally suit the people who were practicing it. Thus adaptation was, is and in my view should always make up the central spine of karate evolution - otherwise we risk almost certain stagnation." (p24)
Following traditions involves far more than just doing what those in the past did. If you follow their beliefs and strive to achieve what they sought, then you are following tradition. Just blindly copying what people did in the past is not traditional, in my opinion. There is much more to tradition than that.
On a side note, I highly recommend Chris Denwood's book. It is an excellent read and he has demonstrated a wonderful depth of knowledge on this key kata for Shuri-based schools.
Kind regards
Jeff
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2014 10:45:11 GMT
I am reminded of the start of GF's poem...
'To search for the old is to understand the new.
The old, the new this is a matter or time'.
I saw a tag line on another persons web page... 'Tradtional values, modern methods'.
Both seem very apt to the thread. I like the definition that Jeff has given for tradtional and linking it with an ability to modify, adapt and evolve.
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Post by tomobrien1 on Jan 18, 2014 3:43:40 GMT
I'm not qualified to describe what is or is not traditional. I teach/practice an art for 43 years called Vee-jitsu. We do, have done & always will do everything & anything that works. We do karate, kobudo, TKD, boxing, kick-boxing, MT, grappling, judo, ju-jitsu, BJJ, wrestling, self defense, Krav Mega, Arnis (Filipino stick fighting), MMA and we are always open to learn anything new or different. We do use the Japanese terminology for all things karate, judo & ju-jitsu. We wear a gi. We have a traditional, kyu, ranking system. We work out on a wrestling mat. We don't allow the use of profanity in our school/club that we call a dojo. We respect each other & all the other martial arts. We bow & rei before & after each class. We say osu. We compete in what's considered traditional karate competitions run by the AAU (only Japanese). So what are we? We train hard. We get punched in the face & slammed to the mat. We do good martial arts & try to grow as human beings that's all that matters in MHO.
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jan 18, 2014 17:03:44 GMT
Well said Tom! My karate has its roots in Shotokan but it is mine! I draw from all the previous martial atts I have ever trained or dabbled in and use what works or makes sense for me.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2014 8:20:01 GMT
Well said Tom and Jim. I think that in future I will try not to describe my karate as either traditional or modern but just Shotokan karate and leave it for onlookers to judge.
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Post by tomobrien1 on Jan 26, 2014 4:15:12 GMT
Having said all that - I am not even ranked in Shotokan but I just love it
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