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Post by makoto on Mar 1, 2014 16:23:43 GMT
So power lifters use the Valsalva Maneuver when lifting heavy weights. Why not us as following the one punch to end all do not breath like this, or similar to? I know our loads are not as heavey, but hitting a target is the same as lifting weights. Our bodies bear weight when making contact with an object. Thus the whole blah blah about proper technique and form. It is all for maximum effectiveness. So, if powerlifters use the Valsalva Maneuver, why do not we as Shotokan people, looking for the one punch kill, do the same?
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Post by garage on Mar 1, 2014 19:54:02 GMT
Power lifters are moving a weight in one direction fairly slowly. The reaction that this causes change in heart rate high blood pressure and then a recovery reaction that means they are not in control doesn't matter.
The action slows you down as you are producing a strong but slow force. If you are a big person the loss of force doesn't matter. The speed as a greater effect than strength so slowing you move up is less likely to give the one punch finish you are looking for.
Not to mention the effect on your ear drums and the increase in pressure in the chest and your backside often resulting in hemeroids.
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Post by dhodge on Mar 2, 2014 9:24:57 GMT
Garage power lifting is every bit as explosive as a karate-ka in the execution of the lift/punch. It is not a slow movement but controlled it is also a good addition to our training.
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Post by garage on Mar 2, 2014 11:19:06 GMT
Valsalva Maneuver is sealing the output of your breath and pressurising your system which not all power lifters do. So it has side effects dizzyness etc which make you feel unwell so should be done with caution. It claimed it is responsible for a number of people dying on the toilet each year.
The clean and jerk moves quickly pushing the weight to lockout is slow after the speed of the clean part. That is one method there are others but they are the ones I trained with.
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Post by makoto on Mar 2, 2014 11:32:30 GMT
I would like to modify this question. Is there any relation between the breathing of karate and that of regular weight training?
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Post by garage on Mar 2, 2014 17:41:04 GMT
I think there is. If you use a weight lifters belt the thick leather one as you tense your stomach it pulls your spine in. There are no bones in the front of your body so it is the stomach muscles that connect the floor to your lower body to your upper body then the fist.
Holding your breath is a bad idea, so I tend to breath out same for weights as for karate. Too much tension helps neither.
I tend to empty half to 2/3 before the tension in both, in karate the tension is off quicker as there is no weight to control. Power lifting and weight training are different techniques. For karate you after the fast twitch muscles rather than the slower power which are not going to help you. Lighter weights more reps helps karate.
I train with powerlifters and weight trainers for various sports. I value your input as you probably have better input from the karate angle.
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Post by th0mas on Mar 3, 2014 18:39:31 GMT
I am not familiar with the Valsalva Maneuver (but holding your breath in a combat situation cannot be a good idea)if someone could enlighten... it would be helpful :-)
In the examples above it would seem you're comparing only Shotokan striking technique with the powerlifters clean & jerk? Would not the more pragmatic fighting scenario of applying strength and body mass from the clinch be a better comparison to make?
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Post by garage on Mar 6, 2014 13:31:43 GMT
Breath in and out lots hold your breath and nose and pressure against the held nose, you can normally pass out. School kids do it to pass out.
In shotokan karate what clinch is there? I know a lot of deluded instructors think that shotokan does everything including the cooking instructions for toast in every kata but it is not something that is practiced as part of the style. So it is a shotokan forum so I would not go wiht the clinch as that would be practiced at a wresting class as they are more practiced and know what they are doing rather than pretending. I have no real body mass so cannot apply the strength anyway.
If I stick 100kg ( all I can manage) my arms move slower than when I am punch, which according my weight lifting books suggest I am using different muscle fibre to perform the 2 different actions.
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Post by daveb on Mar 7, 2014 7:09:34 GMT
In shotokan karate what clinch is there? I know a lot of deluded instructors think that shotokan does everything including the cooking instructions for toast in every kata but it is not something that is practiced as part of the style. So it is a shotokan forum so I would not go wiht the clinch as that would be practiced at a wresting class as they are more practiced and know what they are doing rather than pretending. I have no real body mass so cannot apply the strength anyway. Surely if karate is a fighting art there should be within it methods of coping with things like a clinch? Furthermore I believe many of those deluded instructors have spent time learning wrestling in order to understand how their karate functions in that environment.
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Post by jimlukelkc on Mar 7, 2014 11:35:44 GMT
Kata does indeed deal with the clinch, along with clearing limbs etc. It is probably true to say there is no clinch as such in Shotokan as we would hope to deal with an attack before it gets to a clinch, however it would be madness not to have a provision for it. For verification of this look at the enpi strikes in tekki. Unless I am deluded of course ! Cue smiley-face!
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Post by garage on Mar 7, 2014 12:48:58 GMT
Personally I am deluded, in that I have been to the wrestling, Judo Aikido to deal with the problem of shotokan that once you have closed the distance it is not readily apparant what to. Elbows, sweeps, 9 throws never enough time to practice them, and they are not the best.
So some comes to a Shotokan I show these thecniques which I haven't learnt in Shoto and there are probably people that are better practiced than I am at them. On the other hand I am more likely to hit the target before someone has got me. On the other other hand I am more likely to be arrested as I hit them first.
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Post by daveb on Mar 7, 2014 19:36:47 GMT
So why not simply rebalance our training to cover and (more importantly) practice more of the relevant skills of self defence?
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Post by garage on Mar 8, 2014 2:27:52 GMT
My training includes; Handbrake Turns, J turns, leaving a moving Car. Shooting, pistols shotguns. Edged weapons, Staffs etc. Basic wound dressing and body repair. Running away, fear management. Trying not to fill my pants when I am scared.
All things I have faced so relevent self defence?
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Post by daveb on Mar 10, 2014 23:54:20 GMT
Sounds like spy school. :-)
Like you I believe in an individual tailoring their training to their needs. I also think any instructor calling their system a martial art should have answers to any self defense question.
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