functionality in kata

[jimlukelkc]

Just been re-reading the excellent "meditations on violence " by Rory Miller. H professes to be no karate expert but his wife trains regularly and this is a quote directly from the books

" To me it looks like kata is all about hands , shoulders and hips working together simultaneously with a drop in centre of gravity ( COG ). This is one of the most potent systems of power generation. This is a potent system regardless of whether the action is interpreted as a strike, a lock, or a throw. "
"The more possibilities you see in anything, the more options you have. Since the actions can be interpreted effectively in so many ways, kata maybe more powerful as a training tool if you see none of these (or all of them) than if you decide it is just one of them. As long as the hips, hands, shoulders and COG work together, there is no difference anyway. Karateka get in their own way when they try to dig into the "deeper secrets" of their movements. Learn to move. Kata is excellent for that. Then reproduce or experience the dynamics of actual conflict and you well see how much really valid technique there is in the old forms. "

[jimlukelkc]

Any thoughts? Plenty of expert advise around and freely given about kata but from an "outside" that isn't negative ?

[kensei]

wait....did you just say "He professes to be no Karate expert BUT HIS WIFE TRAINS REGULARLY"?? LMAO! TOOOOO FUNNY!!!!!

[D.Ram]

This is truly a very interesting opinion!
From a "Western" standpoint*, much negativity has been uttered regarding the uselessness of "blind repetition". Interesting to find someone actually saying that even if you do NOT try to figure out the meaning of movements, there's still value to be gained by simply practicing movements! Worth a ponder!

* Currently reading Rob Redmond's book called "Kata - The Folk Dances of Shotokan", where I find several remarks indicating a low opinion in this context.
______________
The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in battle.

[kensei]

a few notes. First off all martial arts use Reps....even kick boxing and boxing. Its not like you throw gloves on and just spar the whole time. You do reps against bags, you do reps into pads, you do shadow boxing with a focus on specific movements, you work on reps of moves in so many different ways that its similar to doing Kata. You need to realize that you need to hard wire in repetitions to progress at all in martial arts.

And Deepak, Reading Robs work is like reading a christian fundamentalists papers on Islam! You have to realise that while the source of the writing is very well read and that he is a highly skilled writer, he hates Karate and has said so MULTIPLE times on his forum that he fell out of favour with others and then began to dislike Karate. Like an ex smoker writing about the ills of smokeing he tends to skewer anything possitive and turn it into a negative.

He is a great writer but people need to realize that being skilled as an writer does not mean that you are unbiased! Read his stuff, read stuff that counters his and make up your own mind, realizing that he can create sheep out of the most agressivly pro Karate people.

[nathanso]

I think that RR is against mindless repetition, not repetition in general. Read for example, his description of how to break down teaching a front kick into its component parts. A lot of purpose-ful reps there.

[D.Ram]

Oss James, Neil, I agree with both of you :-)
I see a lot of negativity in RR's book, but despite that, it's one of the few quality books I found online that were up for free download! I'm going through it while convincing myself to throw away dollars on my next e-book :-)
The book I'm reading has a separate chapter for each Kata, so I'm trying hard to reach there, hoping that those will add value to my practice!
______________
The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in battle.

[daveb]

Personally I agree with Miller, but only in specific contexts. Karateka began mining kata because by and large they were not being taught locks or throws to even know how to see them. Without that proper foundation in a broad range of skills and techniques, blind repetition is exactly that, blind.

Viewing kata as having Unlimited Implications, for those not sufficiently skilled in technique, tactics or strategy just becomes an excuse to do nothing with the kata. Whereas one can easily pin down a limited set of say, 2-4 applications per movement/combination that have a continuous theme across individual kata and express a variety of skills. Drill these in formats from static to continuous until the skills are ingrained and can be applied flexibly, then start thinking about the limitless possibilities of movement.

That's when one can start looking into the fundamentals of technique and combat and movement, when they actually have an arsenal to analyse in the first place.

Regarding Redmond's book, I've not read it, but I once asked him how he squares the notion of kata being meaningless folk dances, with the thriving culture of kata based martial arts study just over the water in southern China. He ignored me. So if you come across an answer in the book please do let me know.

[kensei]

Apr 17, 2014 9:02:52 GMT daveb said:

Regarding Redmond's book, I've not read it, but I once asked him how he squares the notion of kata being meaningless folk dances, with the thriving culture of kata based martial arts study just over the water in southern China. He ignored me. So if you come across an answer in the book please do let me know.

I dont think you will find an answer. Rob tended to live by the personal philosophy that if you dont agree with me I will bully and belittle you until you cry and give up or I will assume you are crying and I will bully you more...and if I think that wont work..I will stick my fingers in my ears and pretend you dont exist and ban you from "my web kingdome" and ignore you.

Challenge him even a tiny bit or show you are upset with something he did and you were fresh meat for his bully tactics...and he was good at them. ask him a direct question and you were done!...and probably never to hear his answers.

[garage]

Come on James this is a Karate forum and you are not discussing karate you are going on about your personal dislike of someone, I really thought the muslim/ christian comparison was really near the knuckle.

The Kata book I didn't get on with it as it had no pictures, clearly I am not a word person. The idea that katas make shapes in the sand shows how bored you can get doing the same thing again and again, so didn't feel that either. I like the sharing of thoughts of what you do when you do kata as there is common ground.

The kick idea doesn't work and posted comments about it, the breaking the technique up works for me I just do the technique differently, as I want a technique that works outside the sparring test enviroment.

The are far more more offensive people on this planet than Rob Redmond I do not understand how you let him get so far under your skin. I would like to share you understanding not your dislike!!

[Allan Shepherd]

Hi Bert

Agree with you 100%...also thought we had moved on from mud slinging...appears not. We appear not to be making progress with our karate discussions.

Ask ourselves why the membership is only 694 and the guest list over the last 24 hours is 282? Not an ideal ratio for progress is it?

My personal take on it is that the people who are guest's are probably thinking I will look but not participate for fear of being seen as a point for argument and ridicule NOT discussion. Looking at a far wider perspective we are all guest's to this forum and should therefore respect that position.

Best Regards
Allan

[kensei]

Bert and Allan,

I read you posts and agree, my personal issues with Rob and the abuse he heaped on allot of us was poorly represented here. My personal bias against him is my own and I should not have brought it out. However, it is only Mr. Redmond. My comment about Christian/islam was ONLY to represent two opposing points of view and by no way pointing at either directly. and I am shocked you did not say anything about the ex smoker reference as well. I could have said Conservative vs Socialist but it just did not occur to me at the time.

My dislike for Robs tactics aside, I did get a bit harsh in my posts and for that I apologize, not for how I felt but for posting with out thinking. I still think that Rob is a tool and a bully but perhaps I could have put it a bit better...like I just did!

J

[jimlukelkc]

Sigh....

[daveb]

Does anyone have other thoughts on the thread topic?

[daveb]

Does anyone have other thoughts on the thread topic?

It strikes me that if there is concern over the membership of the forum, positive contributions and active discussion might be a good way to encourage others to join in.

[Allan Shepherd]

Hi Dave

Might be a problem if people read James's apology!...the momentum continues till the end of his post. Does not actually encourage others to join in!! Still has to have the last word...or is it?

Best Regards
Allan

[garage]

I think kata gives you a chance of taking a sport and making reverse engineering something that has some functionality. You cannot keep backing up to keep the attacker and front and duel this them. The kata takes it into 2 dimensions intstead of the usual one dimension that sports like shotokan and boxing make it.

[kensei]

If you all want I will delete my posts on this subject and clean up the thread. Pardon me for posting my thoughts. Did not know I had to agree with everyone to post...thought that the site was to encourage people with different thoughts to debate a bit and chat. My mistake.

[Allan Shepherd]

"If you all want I will delete my posts on this subject and clean up the thread. Pardon me for posting my thoughts. Did not know I had to agree with everyone to post...thought that the site was to encourage people with different thoughts to debate a bit and chat. My mistake."

Hi James

This is my take on the matter for what is is worth...or not worth. It is the subject matter that is under discussion NOT the author...ie Rob Redmond!!

I think it is quite evident from the very small number of members who can actually be bothered to contribute that your personal thoughts of "tool and bully" (your words) etc are becoming tedious to say the least.

I am presuming that most of us who contribute want to discuss "karate matters" and not hear about personal issues regarding any individuals from a Administrator...5 Star...Assistant Caretaker!!

Happy Easter to everyone.

Best Regards
Allan

[kensei]

Good points, Okay...The content of Robs book is biased because of his dislike and his style of writing, while very clean is still colored by his obvious dislike of Karate....which is weird because he used to be part of the JKA and other groups and did Karate for a number of years. He does not dig very deep into much of the Kata subject beyond what you can find on wikipedia or google. I have read more interesting posts on Kata by zooming around the web and with out the bias.

My personal issues with Rob aside, his work is clean but you have to dig through a tone of "this stuff is ineffective" type under tones.

[Allan Shepherd]

Hi James

If you cannot find what we are looking for in life move on...it is quite simple!! We will eventually find it elsewhere. Everything in life is subjective simply by the nature of who we are...we are all allowed our opinions but more importantly allowed to express them. Well in the free World anyway.

Possibly the worst type of person in the scheme of things is someone who gets personal in print with someone with whom they do not agree with and use a forum such as OSS to "give" their opinion about an individual Even more repulsive is when that person thinks that they have latitude over others who might have opinion's of a lesser severe nature. Thought that recent events with one particular individual had taught us all a lesson!! This site deserves more.

The subject by jimlukelkc is "functionality in kata" so let us continue with it in a sensible and adult way. Do we actually know if the kata or the techniques came first?

From my limited knowledge in the beginning there were only a very few number of kata to express technique but if like me you have been training for 48 years then you would have noticed the increase of kata and application of additional techniques from those early books etc.

Best Regards
Allan

[garage]

In the funakoshi books it suggests that he knew over 100 kata, he selected about 16 which he considered was enough for anyone to know. Wado stayed at 16. Goju ryu has 8.

In Kyoshan the is reference to 26. Shito ryu has 65 katas. So there has always been a lot of kata's it is only the internet that has made it a lot easier to find out about them.

To me they technique came first then the kata's are used to remember them. I think a lot of them are over thought and there are meanings that where never intended.

[kensei]

I am torn on the number of Kata that Funakoshi actually knew and practiced. In his books he names a tone of Kata, some of which are still used and some are not part of any Karate style anymore, but then he mentions that his instructor only taught him one Kata every three years or so....but as I have learned in over 40 years of training with Japanese instructors they often speak in riddles and say things that are not exactly true, but more metaphors for things they want you to learn.

Also, I know that while Azato was one of Matsumuras students only that Itosu kind of wandered for a bit after leaving Matsumura and trained with others. As Funakoshi trained with both men I can see him knowing 20 or so Kata between the two...so 100 may be a bit of a stretch.

From my experience to really know a kata you have to learn the function of the kata, the applications and different views, this takes more time than just memorizing a Kata for performance. I dont always see that more is better in the case of Kata...more focused training on fewer Kata is probably much better.

[garage]

Clearly the numbers do not add up if he picked 16 that would have taken 48 years at 3 years for each. His autobiography puts him in Japan by the time he is 50 so wouldn't have been learning from the orginal teachers as some are dead by this point.

Wado ryu broke away with 16 and they look more like his pictures. Karate kyohan refers to more than the 16 in wado ryu. There are tekki 1-3 which is not in that style. His son goes off and adds some more. Clearly Shotkan has diverged markedly form Funokoshi's original form. So the books refer to Funakoshi being aware of a large number of kata some writers mention a hundred.

If you read the writings they change according to which audience that he is trying influence over the years.

Clearly honour is not effected by being an outright liar, so I am confused as I find lying unacceptable.

[Allan Shepherd]

My understanding is that Funakoshi had 15 original kata...Heian 1-5, Tekki 1-3, Bassai Dai, Kanku Dai, Enpi, Jion, Jitte, Hangetsu and Gankaku.

The other 12 kata...Taikyoku Shodan, Jiin, Bassai Sho, Kanku Sho, Chinte, Unsu, Sochin, Nijushiho, Gojushiho Dai/Sho,Meikyo and Wankan followed later. Various schools of Shotokan added other kata which added further functionality. Some of these kata were possibly just training kata to support existing kata...for example Taikyoku 2-6,Heian Oyo, Tekki Oyo, Junro etc.

Some time ago I posted about a Goju Ryu club that I used to visit never deviating from their training regime within their 8 kata, someone said how boring. Those 8 kata epitomised "functionality in kata" simply because everything worked and there was no need for add ons.

Generally speaking all Ryu share the same kihon techniques that are expressed in their respective kata...some more than others. If we could put our Shotokan kata into chronological order then we might see a pattern emerge to better understand the "need" for additional kata beyond the original 15.

Best Regards
Allan

[daveb]

I've read from a number of sources that the addition of more kata was purely to fill the void left by a lack of application training. There is only so many times you can repeat a kata before you get bored and move on to the next one.
Also I suggest that a lack of kata study early on in training meant that those who stayed with the art were those who enjoyed kata performance over partner training, thus shaping their approach and the subsequent development of the style.

If I remember correctly, Funakoshi states that he was sent to Itosu to learn the Tekki kata and that he spent either 3 years on each (which at the time may have been only 2 forms), or 3 years for the lot, I can't remember which. Either way it is consistent with the writings of both him and others stating that most masters taught 3-5 kata in great depth; depth which could only have been application and movement studies which are the functionality that as a style Shotokan has been missing since it's inception.

[daveb]

When considering how long GF spent studying kata we have to realise that most of the notions about kata learning that are not based in a culture of application study are not going to be wholly valid.

Once you reach a certain level of proficiency in martial technique there's no need to spend the same amount of time on a new form. Even if there are new concepts involved the base of coordination, skill and the understanding of combat make learning faster and easier. With this in mind I suggest that funakoshi learned Tekki very early on, perhaps largely as strength and endurance training. I would imagine he was learning other things at a slightly faster rate from Azato at the same time

[kensei]

Solid post David,

The other thing we have to realize is that these "in Funakoshi's words" are translations of translations in alot of the sources. Its a bit like playing "Phone chat" when you were a kid. Standing in a row one kid wispers something into the next kids ear and it goes down the line to see how close the original is to the end result....IN this case Funakoshi may have said something like "It took me a year to understand this Kata" and after translations and other people bias it may have come out as "3 years, One Kata". He also may have been engaging in the most annoying of Old Karate instructors favorite game...talking in riddles! Which if you add that to the tendency for translators to go off script ends up being even more confusing.

[garage]

We call this Chinese whispers, I expect Funakoshi would have called "Empty Whispers" as he would have wanted to hide the Chinese connection and then pretend it was something to with a zen state of mind whilst playing.

It is not just the translation some of it is done to mislead intentionally.

[kensei]

Apr 24, 2014 23:41:46 GMT garage said:

We call this Chinese whispers, I expect Funakoshi would have called "Empty Whispers" as he would have wanted to hide the Chinese connection and then pretend it was something to with a zen state of mind whilst playing.

It is not just the translation some of it is done to mislead intentionally.

Very cute, I liked this very much!

I am not entirly sure that this was of Funakoshi's doing. first off their is some debate as to if he was the person that made this change, actually its pretty clear he was "borrowing" the idea entirely and that he was not at all responsible for the change over. Much like the pictures of him fighting the boxer, which was actaully Motobu Choki in the ring, some of his students may have attributed him to this change over...and many other things we think he did.

Point being, I think that the translations and such may have been misleading intentionally as you suggested...but most deffinently not by him, probably his students or someone that wanted us to think he had made changes ext.