Back stance (Kokutsu-dachi) vs Cat stance (Nekoashi-dachi)

[th0mas]

Back stance often receives some bad press...

Now some of this might be because it is only practiced by the main Japanese styles of karate (the Wado, Shotokan and Shotokai lineage) and it's offshoots (including TKD and TSD) and other karate styles see no use for it as they prefer Cat stance.

So…on the face of it, why bother with back-stance, when Cat stance gives you much more agility of movement and frees up the front leg for snap kicking, sweeping and throwing etc. Kokutsu-dachi is also more awkward to learn, so much so infact that Funakoshi swapped the first two Heian kata’s around to delay teaching absolute beginners back-stance.

So I think this is worthy of debate (I am easily amused) and I will pin my colours to my sleeve and state now that I am a massive fan of Kukutsu-dachi and it’s Siamese twin – Shuto. In fact I think Cat-stance and Shuto come a poor second as a paring.

I have my own rationale for why there is an important role for back-stance in my training, as a separate rather than alternative stance to Nekoashi-dachi… But lets hear you others first.

[Bob Davis]

We can play at the camp next Saturday if this doesn't make sense but the use of back stance is fundamentally different to that of cat stance IMO as it's a stance of dropping weight into a technique either during a pulling type action or a rotational action (where the back leg is really the front leg moving into a technique but ends up by being the "back" leg by dint of the final position).

The credibility issue comes (I believe) from the poor way it's practiced as a stepping basic in Kihon with shuto as a block, stepping forward with a backward weighted stance whilst "blocking" with a knife hand, really? (an example of form without true function) It may be a later addition to the style but I find I use it a lot.

[Allan Shepherd]

Hi Tom

Interesting subject...daveb mentioned in "functionality in kata" that he trained with a 9th Dan who admitted that he didn't understand the purpose of back stance!! Wonder how "all" his students feel?

It is amazing that so many karateka do not understand the weight distribution of Kokutsu Dachi and this "might" be the reason why this 9th Dan does not understand the purpose of same. If the weight distribution and position of the back leg is correct it affords exactly the same amount of agility as Neko Ashi Dachi.

When I teach Kokutsu Dachi I instill in the student that if performing a front, side or even a roundhouse kick from same you DO NOT transfer your weight backwards as the correct position should allow you to simply pick up the kicking leg and strike as per Neko Ashi Dachi.

The correct leg/hip alignment for Kokutsu Dachi/Shuto Uke is ankle/knee/hip in one VERTICAL plane, NOT the long exaggerated stances seen in kata competitions.

Take the combination Kokutsu Dachi/Shuto Uke/Osae Uke/Mae Geri/ Nukite.....do one set with a vertical plane and one with the long exaggerated stance (which needs weight transfer backwards before you kick) and see which works best for you!! In that interim period when you transfer your weight backwards to kick you get hit...simple!

Best Regards
Allan

[daveb]

May 20, 2014 19:05:11 GMT Allan Shepherd said:

Hi Tom

Interesting subject...daveb mentioned in "functionality in kata" that he trained with a 9th Dan who admitted that he didn't understand the purpose of back stance!! Wonder how "all" his students feel?

It is amazing that so many karateka do not understand the weight distribution of Kokutsu Dachi and this "might" be the reason why this 9th Dan does not understand the purpose of same. If the weight distribution and position of the back leg is correct it affords exactly the same amount of agility as Neko Ashi Dachi.

When I teach Kokutsu Dachi I instill in the student that if performing a front, side or even a roundhouse kick from same you DO NOT transfer your weight backwards as the correct position should allow you to simply pick up the kicking leg and strike as per Neko Ashi Dachi.

The correct leg/hip alignment for Kokutsu Dachi/Shuto Uke is ankle/knee/hip in one VERTICAL plane, NOT the long exaggerated stances seen in kata competitions.

Best Regards
Allan

I wouldn't worry about his students, the instructor in question is by far the most knowledgable karateka I've encountered. He had a whole post Dan syllabus of multi-layered kata application when most karateka were still learning what bunkai meant.
The fact is he just didn't see the point in kokutsudachi and converted it to zenkutsudachi in application.

I've never found back stance useful for lead leg kicking as its not polarized enough for me (though I agree with Alan's description of the stance). The emphasis as I have been taught is on grounding rather than agility. Not that I think Alan is wrong, just different to the path I was placed on.

Going from a sunken, grounded perspective you can translate the steps forward in the stance as kicking low when advancing. Static lead leg kicks are still possible but they do require slight weight adjustment.

Where I feel the grounded kokutsudachi is aimed is for the close quarter "trapping"/boxing melee range.

The stance exists on a continuum, with high narrow cat stance at one end, expanding out to the arrow stance of Wing Chun, then sits the longer and deeper kokutsudachi, then the stance widens and weight centralised to sanchin dachi. It elongates to zhan bu, or battle stance of Xing yi/bagua before finally reaching ahead in front stance.

The clue is in the tightened guard, both shuto and morote uke cover the solar plexus with the rear hand and sunk the lead elbow infront of that. Also the weight is held back in these close guards to give yourself the maximum space to see incoming shots while accelerating your own.

The guard is replicated in every close fighting style from southern China to Muay Boran to the old bare knuckle boxers of the West. It's why the hiean nidan, sandan and godan all use minimal movement in their opening techniques; there's no where to move to when your already that close and your holding/trapping the opponents limbs. The movement that is in those sequences is offensive, not evasive.

Though cat stance is better for the leading leg kick, the increased polarization makes you less stable. Basically to fight this way means you have got to keep moving and your strikes in close will mostly be light fast and sharp. Back stance offers more stability, the potential for heavier blows and the ability to use body weight against the opponent.

[daveb]

May 20, 2014 18:33:20 GMT Bob Davis said:

The credibility issue comes (I believe) from the poor way it's practiced as a stepping basic in Kihon with shuto as a block, stepping forward with a backward weighted stance whilst "blocking" with a knife hand, really? (an example of form without true function) It may be a later addition to the style but I find I use it a lot.

Stepping backwards and blocking makes perfect sense, especially if you are creating space to intercept their next attack, which is one application of the backward shift shuri that precedes the advancing shuto's.

Going forward with the block only makes sense if you look at it as a strike, or as a guard clearance followed by a strike. The last advancing shuto into pressing block and knifehhand strike fits this model (clearing front then rear guard hands before striking). The knife hand it's self signifying a low surface area attack like a single knuckle punch, or applied as is but from contact and into soft tissue.

[garage]

Going forward makes sense if the preparation for the block is an open hand that grabs pulls on to the back stance and then chops at a soft such as the neck, pull and block/chop. I thought that the preparation for most blocks are done with the open hand so you can grab twist and break or throw. Perhaps it just me always made sense.

[tomobrien1]

I like both of them.  Kokutsu dachi is done almost every time I move back, away from an attack.  It's similar to the 'snap away' in boxing.  It enables you to explode back off the rear foot.